Baa's and Bleat's - The AASRP Podcast
Baa's and Bleat's - The AASRP Podcast
Milk Quality Investigations - part 1
This week we sit down with one of our neighbors to the north, Dr. Cathy Bauman of Ontario Veterinary College in Guelph, Ontario, Canada. Dr. Bauman's research focuses on helping producers identify, investigate, and mitigate milk quality issues as efficiently as possible. On this episode, we lay the groundwork for conducting a milk quality investigation on a goat dairy by introducing concepts for identifying a milk quality problem; measurable paramaters for evaluating milk quality (specifically somatic cell count and bacterial counts); general principles governing fluctuations in these numbers as they relate to milk production on a goat dairy; key players to have on your team during an investigation; and finally, Dr. Bauman discusses the relationship between high quality milk and cheese production. This is part 1 of a 2 part series that delves into a logical step-wise approach to working up milk quality issues on a dairy goat operation.
Helpful Links:
Small Ruminant Veterinarians of Ontario
https://srvo.ca/
Dr. Cathy Bauman - Ontario Veterinary College
https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/population-medicine/faculty/Cathy-Bauman
American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners - find a vet
http://www.aasrp.org/about/find_a_vet.asp
This podcast is sponsored by the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners as well as USDA National Institute of Food and Agriculture, Agricultural and Food Research Initiative Competitive Program, Antimicrobial Resistance grant # 2020-04197.
Questions or comments about today's episode can be directed to DairyGoatExtension@iastate.edu
Hello, I'm Dr. Michelle Buckley from Iowa State University's College of Veterinary Medicine. Thanks so much for joining us on Baas and Bleats, sponsored by the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners. Just a quick note before we get started, this work is also supported by the USDA National Institute of Food and Agriculture, Agricultural and Food Research Initiative Competitive Program, Antimicrobial Resistance Grant Number 2020-04197, which funds my research on improving antibiotic stewardship in dairy goats to assure food safety and milk quality. As always, if you have any questions about any of our episodes, please email them to dairygoatextension at iastate.edu. I hope you enjoyed today's show. Thanks for joining us today on season one of Boz and Bleats, the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners Podcast. This season, we're focusing on improving milk quality and food safety in Dairy Goats. Before we get started, I'd like to make a special request as the season winds down and we prepare to shift topics and hosts. We'd really appreciate hearing from you out there, our listeners. If you have questions related to any of our episodes or feedback about the show, or if you just want to let us know who you are and where you're from and why you love dairygoat podcasts, send us an email at DairygoateExtension at Iastate.edu. We'd love to hear from you and we'll do our best to answer any questions that come our way. All right, now for today's show. Our guest is Dr. Kathy Bauman from the University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada. And our discussion today is going to be focusing on milk quality and specifically on troubleshooting milk quality issues. I think we'll really be able to build on the groundwork of knowledge that Dr. Fauna Smith was able to provide us in episode four. So I'm really excited to welcome Dr. Bauman to the program. Can you start us off with an introduction about how you got involved with milk quality and dairy goats specifically?
Cathy:Hi, Michelle. Thank you for inviting me to participate in these podcasts. I really enjoyed listening to the previous ones, and I'm excited to talk with you today about troubleshooting milk quality. My background initially is as a veterinarian. I graduated from the Ontario Veterinary College here in Guelph, Canada. I practiced in mixed animal practice for over 15 years prior to me coming back to school to study epidemiology. When I came back, I acquired my Master of Public Health, which really suits me well now that I'm doing some food safety and milk quality and aspects that apply to human health. The project for my PhD was evaluating diagnostic tests for Yoni's disease in dairy sheep and dairy goats. And prior to that point, my experience with those two species was just sporadically in practice dealing with sick animals, but never really having the opportunity to tackle milk quality. And so coming from the dairy cattle side, I was really keen to apply what we know over to small ruminants. So my PhD project shaped my future research now that I'm a faculty member. And since I've been here at Guelph teaching, we've done a large study on goat kid mortality, which was very interesting, and dug up some new things to make us really appreciate that they're just not small cows. I've done depletion studies of injectable trimethopron sulfa in goats, and another one depletion study of penicillin in dairy sheep. And as a bounce off from our kid mortality study, we did a goat colostrum and replacement product project. And now we're bounced over to milk quality. My background, really, like I said, was more dairy cattle industry, and it's helped to guide me, but also has biased me for some aspects of the dairy goat milk quality study. And so I had to unlearn some things that I learned from dairy cattle that are really goat-specific. And imagine if we do something later on with dairy sheep as well, it'll be a little of the same thing. There's a lot of species-specific differences that we really need to take into account. And I'm sure a lot of producers and veterinarians that deal with small remnants would agree with me. But we just have to keep driving that home with the rest of the industry. So, as I said, I listened to all the other previous podcasts, and I appreciate Michelle that you've got this huge wealth of knowledge that you've been able to corral in and get us talking in a more cohesive fashion. So you had information on Utter Health with Dr. Andrea Mangini and the milking equipment with Dr. Joan Dean Rowe. And I just hope I can build on that information that you've had presented already by helping to provide a kind of organized plan for how we work up a farm that is determined that they have a milk quality issue. So we have all this background knowledge. How do we now apply it to fixing a problem on the farm?
Michelle:Yeah, awesome. I'm so glad we were able to rope you into this, Dr. Baumann, because I think you're the perfect person to just uh tie a bow on this topic for us. So um let's start off with the basic question of how does a farm know when they have a milk quality issue? Um and maybe you can go over some like quote unquote common presenting complaints that you hear from producers that you work with.
Cathy:Sure, Michelle. Um as we know, every producer is different, and as other people have said, you know, every dairy goat farm is different. And so it's hard really with this industry to come up with a basic description of how everyone does something. So that's why it's nice to try and come up with a larger plan that tries to fit everyone and everyone's different needs. So some producers are are really very in tune with their herd and quickly pick up on any changes in the components of their bulk tank milk that's being tested at every pickup or in any changes in the goats, and they seem to know immediately when things are off. Even if their test results have increased just a little bit or decreased on the component side, they're really proactively reaching out to get help. So they're just picking up on those subtle signs. Whereas other producers that we deal with, they are encouraged to act or motivated to act when they have a regulatory violation. So their processor reaches out to them that they're back to scan or their somatic cell count is too high, and it's at that point that they recognize that they have a problem and they'll reach out to us. So I can't really come up with a hard and fast rule of when a farm has a milk quality issue. Other people have talked about it as to whether it sometimes is an odor issue with the bulk tank, a visual appearance or change in the milk. But really, when you're looking at numbers, it's in the eye of the beholder. For some people, a small change is really important, and for other others, it's that violation of the threshold that kind of triggers them to react. Nonetheless, the reason that most people are pulled on the farm to troubleshoot is typically due to bulk tank testing results. So occasionally it's due to that a producer notices they are have a higher than usual number of cases of mastitis, and that's usually clinical mastitis when they pull their vet in. It's very hard, and previous people have mentioned that it's a high incidence of subclinical mastitis, and so that can often bubble away without anyone noticing. And so, again, it typically ends up with it being a bulk tank measure that's out of whack that people call us in. So we all know that you know we started that good milk quality starts at the goat level, it begins with the goat and ensuring that we have a that good quality milk starting from there. But the problem is it's often measured at the bulk tank. And so when those numbers are up, where do we start? Do we go back to the goat? Do we start from those numbers in the bacteria at the bulk tank level? And that's what I'm hoping to go over today. Umway, hope that covers it, Michelle.
Michelle:Awesome. Yeah, I think um that's been kind of a common theme throughout this whole season is there's no one size fits all. Um there's rarely an answer that applies to every single operation. So um, but it's good to kind of have some ideas of warning flags that producers might want to look for, um, and maybe some hot topics that veterinarians should be aware of and should be talking to producers about to be proactive about this issue before it gets to the point where your processor is calling you with an issue. So um also, you know, we do have some standardization of milk quality regulations, right? Um, as far as, you know, here in the US, there's somatic cell count limitations. Um, so can you give us some insights into what those regulations are on a national level or or even a regional level in Canada?
Cathy:Sure. So I'm unfortunately am not totally familiar with with all the other countries and all their different limitations, and again, it really depends on where the milk is regulated, if it's federally or provincially or at a processor level. So it's it's again hard to make a big sweep. I I'm located in Ontario, and our goat producers here are licensed under the Provincial Milk Act that we have, and this encompasses cows as well, so the Milk Act stipulations apply to them. But our act here doesn't cover milk from sheep, primarily because we're not able to buy sheep milk off the shelf, and so there's no need at the moment to regulate sheep milk, but you know, it also prevents us from inspecting those farms too, so there would be a benefit of incorporating them under the act. Producers' bulk tanks are then subsequently tested at every pickup because of these regulations. So they're tested for components, freezing point, drug residues, as well as the bacterial and the somatic cell counts. And all of these are tested at each pickup, and the results are given back to the producer. So for the sake of time, I'm not gonna talk about all of these things that are tested. So, for example, I'm not gonna talk about drug residues. We talked about that, and components was in another podcast. But today, just because it affects milk quality from the point of view of bacterial and somatic cells, I'm gonna focus on bacteria and somatic cell counts when I'm talking about milk quality or poor milk quality. So for most Ontario producers here, the first warning sign that they have a milk quality issue from their processor is when their bulk tank milk test comes back in the bacteria or the somatic cell count is elevated, and that this elevation violates the penalty threshold. So again, that's different as to what the actual level is and for who and as to who enforces it. So it therefore depends on where the producer lives. Um, but these penalty thresholds become the financial driver that really creates that producer to act. So the price for that they'll receive for their milk goes down, and then they are then incentivized to react and to correct those issues. Um this penalty is typically not based on a one-time violation. So we all know that things happen, something could be off on one pickup, but so usually the processors or the provincial body or the state regulator will base it on a two or a three-month rolling average, so that over time, as long as those averages are staying below the threshold, that there's no penalty. The reason these elevations are penalized is because from the human side, bacteria are considered a human health at hazard. So we have to hold people to a certain standard of quality to ensure that the humans that are consuming it on their end remain safe. It's also, though, if we think about it, it's also an animal welfare issue because if the semantic cell counts and the bacteria levels are really high and they're coming from the goats, so they're being shed from goats with mastitis, this is a pain and an animal health issue. So it needs to be addressed for that reason. These elevations they also reduce profitability. Um, you know, first of all, for the processor, because the reduced quality of milk spoils batches of cheese, then they lose money. For fluid milk that's being sold, it also reduces the shelf life of those. And if we think about it, it's also reducing profitability for the producer. Because if they have a lot of low-grade subclinical mastitis going on, then those goats aren't milking to full potential. They're feeding a large amount of goats that aren't producing milk, and so therefore it's reducing profitability for them. Producing poor quality milk though is also a really big public relations issue. You know, no one wants to buy goatee smelling, goatee tasting milk off the shelf. And, you know, if you know, historically, if people are hearing about high somatic cell counts and bacterial counts in goat milk, that provides the industry with a reputation that it potentially could be unclean. You know, it's being pasteurized and what have you, but we can never get it back to that raw, good milk quality state. So everything plays a role into benefiting the goats and the human side when we keep those bacterial and somatic cell counts low. So I think as you mentioned before, Michelle, um, everyone has uh a responsibility in providing quality milk for the industry.
Michelle:This is just a great overview of why it's so important to start out with good quality milk. Like you said, you just you can't go back to a high quality product, you can't pasteurize your way out of that. So that's a really good point for folks to keep in mind when setting benchmarks on their own uh operations. So I know that somatic cell count and high bacterial count are linked, but can you explain a little bit more of how those um how those numbers are related and what the difference is and maybe which one would be more concerning for a producer and a processor?
Cathy:Yeah, so coming from the dairy cattle industry, there's really clear associations that have been shown between high somatic cell counts on a boat tank and high bacterial count. And it helps us to kind of you know figure out where the problems are coming from. And some people are more worried about bacterial on their farms and some with somatic cell. But that relationship is really more complex on a goat farm, and we'll go into some of those things shortly, but often both are related in dairy goats. You know, one of them may be quite a bit higher than others just at one short period of time, but for the most part, producers will find that they kind of both go up and down together when there's a problem going on. The penalty threshold, though, that the processors and the regulatory bodies are mainly focused on ensuring that the bacterial counts are low rather than somatic cell. So that's why you'll notice that the regulations tend to be such and such for bacteria and hard and fast, and that they're a bit more lenient or may not care at all when the somatic cell counts go up. And I know in some countries in Europe they've discontinued having a somatic cell count threshold entirely. The reason for this is that goat somatic cell counts are really influenced by a couple of things. One is the method that's used to count them at the laboratory, and the other is again, you've touched on this, is the biological factors that are inherent to goats, that somatic cell counts are sometimes less tied to mastitis. So we know that somatic cell counts can go up with increased number of parodies. Now, whether this is untreated mastitis, we don't know, but the number of lactations that a goat has, we know that each subsequent one they tend to have a higher somatic cell count, so going up with age per se. As the stage of lactation goes on, late in the stage of lactation, the somatic cell count goes up, but it also tends to go up really early. As soon as they've kitted, they often have a spike in somatic cell count that settles down. So if a producer had a large number of animals kidding all at once and then had a bunch of fresh new goats going into the bulk tank, they may see a bulk in somatic cell count. So again, a reason maybe to not have a really low threshold penalty threshold on somatic cell count because a producer might be exceeding that every time they had a large batch of dose kiting. Estrus, we know in individual goats that go into heat, their somatic cell count can be temporarily elevated, and then as soon as they're out of heat, it can go back down. And there are other more complicated factors that can sometimes cause these spikes. So I'm not going to go into all of them, but just to kind of use that as a justification for for why it's it's it's not used as a hard and fast threshold and why we tend to focus on bacteria. Where I live, there's a machine called the phosomatic, which is used at our local laboratory. Um, and there may be a machine by a different name used in in other locations. But what it does is it counts individual somatic cells as they flow through this really, really tiny diameter tube. So it's basically making the diameter of the tube just a little bit bigger than a somatic cell, and then having a little camera that as they flow through the tube, that's subsequently counting them. And what we call this method is flow cytometry. So meter means to measure and cytome means cells, so as these little cells are flowing through, the little camera is just taking a picture and counting them. Okay. So again, probably a similar machine at your lab, just may have a slightly different name. And so in our province, um the we have a penalty threshold on that somatic cell count if it gets really, really high, and this is put in place by the processor, so it could vary by we have a couple of processors in our province. So but it tends to be really, really high, so it's nowhere near the level of what the cows are.
Michelle:Is this the same type of technology that's used to measure the say like um bovine milk, or do they use a different machine for goats?
Cathy:So you're right, Michelle. This machine is primarily set up to count um cow somatic cells. But it can be used and is typically used to count goat somatic cells as well. And so this would normally not be a problem if goats produced milk in a similar fashion to the way the goats do in their udder. But as Andrea mentioned earlier, goats normally shed parts of their udder cells when they are producing milk. So it doesn't mean that there's inflamedness or blood is being shed or what have you, but they're just bursting some of their cells as they're producing milk. And these cells are really reducing that this machine can't differentiate from the goat somatic cell counts. So this means that the machine is consistently overcounting the number of somatic cells that are present in goat milk because it's also counting some of these other cell particles. So the lab cannot adjust this machine to make a more accurate measure without a lot of extra calibration, which takes time, or by using another method that we use in some labs that involves staining. So we still continue to use this flow cytometry method, and we just accept that somatic cell counts are not an accurate measure of mastitis in goats, as it is with cows. So therefore, most processors don't have a threshold for these counts, but if there is one in place, it's generally something like a million and a half cells per milliliter, which is much higher than the 400 to 500,000 somatic cells per mil in cows, which we have here in Ontario. Somatic cells are still a concern, and this is primarily because they produce enzymes. And for anyone who's tried to make milk at home, and I often recommend that every producer should have a hand at making milk in some capacity, whether they pasteurize their own goat milk and make it from that, or they just buy, you know, a two-liter carton of Homo cow's milk and try it. But you really need to experience making cheese to understand how fastidious it is and how important it is to start with a good quality product. Because you're relying on those cheese curds to form and to settle out. And if we have a lot of somatic cells in that milk, they produce enzymes which inhibit the breakdown of which they can cause breakdown of fats and proteins, but also they inhibit curd formation. And so somatic cells, high number of enzymes, and then it makes a really hard time of trying to make cheese, and therefore we can have a lot of spoilage. So it reduces cheese yield when they're present, alters the texture, and alters the smell. So overall, it's something that processors don't want to have. So that's why they tend to put in this higher limit that they're concerned about. And the reason it's tolerated as being so high is just because there's so much uncertainty with how it's measured. And that the fact that somatic cells themselves, they're not a direct health threat like bacteria are, as we can be a little bit more flexible in accepting milk with a slightly higher somatic cell count. And the other aspect is they don't reproduce in the bulk tank. So the somatic cells that are going in from the goats, if anything, some of them may die and go and break up, and so the level may go down. But if the somatic cell count does not reproduce and go up in the milk that's the longer it's sitting there until it's picked up.
Michelle:It's so great to get some insights on how milk quality ties in with cheese making, since that is where a large proportion of goat milk goes, especially in the US. It's just really interesting to have that connection there. Um, because as a veterinarian, that's not my area of expertise, but it's obviously very important to my clients. So thank you for bridging that gap in knowledge for me. Um so I think it's safe to say that somatic cell count might be a useful tool to track changes in utter health on individual farms, but it's probably not directly correlated with pathogen load, though I'm not sure that there's really uh any hard and fast data out there evaluating that in goats at this time. So um let's talk more about bacterial counts since those are more hard and fast evaluation of uh pathogen load in the udder. So, can you tell us how bacterial counts are measured?
Cathy:So, again, please take into um uh into account where I live. Um, where I live, it's we use the back to scan method of counting bacteria. Um, really similar to how we count somatic cells, except it's a different machine. Can't count them both on the same machine. Um, so it's also used flow cytometry, smaller diameter though, because bacteria are quite a bit smaller than somatic cells. Um laboratories will often not test samples for bacteria levels from the bulk tank if somatic cell count has exceeded four and a half million. So if if your bulk tank has a really, really high somatic cell count that load, four and a half million, they're not gonna then run the back to scan on it because so many of those somatic cells are gonna end up clogging this back to scan machine. Our regulatory body is triggered when the level of these counts exceeds 321,000 cells per mil. This really throws off the cow people from RN because the cut point is 121, 121,000 per mil in cows. But this is the it's it's not that our industry is willing to accept more bacteria, but what happened was is initially we were using standard plate counts, and the threshold on the standard plate count was 50,000 CFUs per mil. And when they then measured those, took those samples that were used on that culture and then calibrated it on the BAC to scan, it ended up being 321,000 for goats and 121,000 cells per milliliter for cows. And it has to do more with the biology of how goat cultures grow and that their cells are smaller and what have you. Um, that the reason that the calibration is slight different. So, again, not always saying that we're willing to accept a higher bacterial load, but this is just the calibration of how it's worked out and measured out and using the back to scan.
Michelle:So, can you give us just a quick breakdown of the difference between SPC or standard plate count and the back to scan technology that you've mentioned?
Cathy:The standard plate count used to be the standard test that was used for many years, it still is today. Um, and this is where it differs slightly from the back to scan. It's a standard plate count, then the milk is cultured out on auger, and it's reliant on live bacteria growing and forming colonies so that the lab techs can count those and determine what the overall bacterial count would be. The bactican, it's counting bacteria whether they're alive or dead, and so it's always going to be a higher count than it would be on a culture because it's counting both. And so they're always going to be a little bit off and may not be entirely related. And there's some, you know, with the standard plate count about it being aerobic and anaerobic and what have you. So it's always difficult to entirely capture the bacterial load and bulk tank milk. But these are the approximate ways that we've we've done it for your standard plate count and now with the back to scan. So since the penalty for high bacterial levels causes a producer to lose money in kind of bringing it back to why do we choose bacterial counts over somatic cell? This is the number we tend to focus on to quickly bring down quickly and as cost-effectively as possible. Is how do we get those bacterial levels normal.
Michelle:So can you provide us with some insights on what strategy you use most commonly to bring your bacterial count levels down as fast as possible?
Cathy:Sure. And I and I said normal and I don't mean normal, but normal for that farm because every farm just tends to have a background level that's normal for them. You know, over the years, as testing has improved and more research has been done in dairy goats, I think we've made a lot of progress and tremendous strides with many aspects of the goat industry overall and milk quality. But, you know, historically we've been really frustrated trying to solve milk quality problems. Um, and it's ref, you know, we have it's refreshing to be reminded constantly on the dairy goat side compared to dairy cows of how little we know and how complex the world is of milking goats and also the processing of the milk products. I think as stakeholders, it's hard to come up with a strategy when we're investigating milk quality because we focus on the area we're most familiar with. So, for example, I'm a veterinarian, Michelle's a veterinarian. We always tend to focus on goat health issues. So we're starting back at the goat and figuring out what diseases that affect their body condition and their immune system and their udder and their teeth health. And we have less experience, it's kind of like nutrition sometimes for us as well, on the equipment side and milk storage, and you know, keeping track of what bacteria come from where and how to work up problems with that with ideal, you know, cleaning products at what temperature. So we're good at one part of that and maybe not so good at the other, or just have less experience. And then we have someone like the equipment dealer or the chemical representative, and they help producers use the right dilution of their chemicals and where to focus on with their stages of cleaning and ensure the milkers in the bulk tank are working properly. So, you know, they're really good at that end, you know, but a lot of these bacteria sometimes are coming from the goat end and going through their equipment, and so they're not as necessarily familiar with that aspect. And then the milk inspector from the processor side or the state regulatory body, the milk inspector is often most interested in the hygiene of the equipment, the bulk tank. We have really good inspectors here that are familiar, you know, with the goats themselves after having raised them, but that's not always the case with all inspectors. Um and so they're looking at the bulk tank, the milk handling, the storage. And so the problem, you know, historically has been that we have people good at certain parts of it, but rarely do we have people that are good at looking at the whole thing from beginning to end or from the end back to the beginning. So, therefore, one of the main issues in troubleshooting is that we have few people that have the proper training in all aspects from goat to plant. I would say the other issue is that unlike the dairy cattle industry, we have large gaps in dairy goat research. And I know everyone would agree with me, and there's always the cry for more research to be done. But one example is in cattle, we know from previous studies that high bacterial counts from the bulk tank with low somatic cell count indicates that there's always, or pretty much always, a cleanliness concern with the milking equipment, or somewhere along the pipeline, or the milk handling system, or occasionally in the bulk tank. In goats, though, this finding is less reliable. As we said, we often can have elevated somag cell count even when the bacterial counts are low. And the other aspect that what we probably take for granted is, and this has been a frustrating part of my milk quality study currently, but it's getting better, is that a lot of the testing infrastructure that's in place is targeted towards cow pathogens. And what we know about these bacteria that the cows have and where they come from. So we know then in cows, when these are up, we know where to go back and search for them as a source or you know what's likely to be dirty. So, for example, we know that staph bacteria, staphylococcal bacteria, originate in the udder, while most streptococcal bacteria originate from the environment. And that's just kind of a given on the cow side. And so we just have to be careful with interpretations of that on the goat side, that we have to then go back to the beginning and do all that background work to ensure that we know that indeed that's holding up correctly in the goats as well. So we can't make the cow assumptions and carry them over to goats because that leads to the frustration from the producer in and for us as a veterinarian trying to help them and for the other stakeholders. And we're also at risk for just not solving the issue. And so I often think as a veterinarian, I have one or two kicks at the can with a producer to solve something before they get frustrated and go on to someone else. So I think we just have to be really sure that we kind of work these problems up carefully one step in.
Michelle:So, one quick question for you, Dr. Bowman. I think a lot of our listeners that are veterinarians are either gonna be approaching this from a bovine perspective or could even be, you know, companion animal veterinarians that are being asked to see dairy goats because there's literally no one else around that can do it. So they're going to have gaps in their knowledge. Um, and that's just kind of, I mean, that's gonna be the case for for most people in that scenario. But do you have any thoughts about maybe um utilizing like a team-based approach to working up um these types of issues? And and could you maybe touch on like who should be on that team?
Cathy:Yeah, and so you're right, Michelle, like you know, we live in a really big country where resources are like labs and expert people are few and far between sometimes. And so it's really nice being part of a network, and that's why we love the AARSRP and then the um we have Servo where we are in the Canadian small ruminant organization as well. And so if you're a non-small ruminant person doing a small ruminant job, it's like a producer, then it's really important to feel like you can reach out to someone with more small ruminant experience. So on the veterinary side is an important part as a fellow veterinarian reaching out, and so a lot of these resources are available via email or you know, podcasts like things like these, or research papers. You know, things are starting to come out and be more and more published that they're accessible that way. Um, I have a really good relationship with our local milk inspector. Um, and so, and again, it's more listening to to the experience that they have and are bringing to it as opposed to you know me telling them what I think it is. I've learned so much from working with the team out in the field, and it's also getting out in the field as well and not trying to diagnose these from just listening to a history, but walking through the farm and seeing what's going on and talking to the producer because you would be so surprised and what they share with you that you know will all of a sudden twig as to what that particular issue may be. Um, if you are interested in continuing, you know, some people want just to help them get through that small ruminant issue once and not worry about building this part of their practice. But for those people wanting to do more in small ruminant and keep going with this because they find it interesting is to really make those connections with the equipment person and you know, with the inspector person to maybe go out for some inspections and going out to the farm maybe when the equipment person is out and going through the equipment with you. Because as always, two minds are better than one, they're learning from you, you're learning from them, and it just kind of builds the whole industry going forward. I I will always, I know they in school they always teach us about evidence-based medicine, but a lot of of that evidence starts with anecdotal evidence from producers, from people that are in the industry and a lot of experience of seeing, of them sharing what they've seen out in the field and just learning from particular, I would call them case studies, but experiences that they've had working up farms.
Michelle:Thanks so much, Dr. Bauman. Well, that's all we have time for today. Join us on our next episode where we'll continue this insightful conversation on working up milk quality issues in dairy goats with Dr. Kathy Bauman. Thanks for tuning in and have a great day.
