How Can I Help You?

For the final episode of Season 1 Dr. Michelle Buckley sits down with Ryan Andrus of Bridgeman Hill Dairy in Vermont to discuss what makes a successful symbiotic relationship between dairy goat producers and veterinarians. Topics discussed include setting attainable goals, expectations of producers and veterinarians, how to talk about expenses, building and managing a successful animal health team, finding the right veterinarian for your farm, and much more.

Helpful Links:

SMART Goals:
https://www.ucop.edu/local-human-resources/_files/performance-appraisal/How%20to%20write%20SMART%20Goals%20v2.pdf

AASRP Find A Vet:
http://www.aasrp.org/about/find_a_vet.asp

Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats:
https://a.co/d/7dLVDlm

The Dairy Goat Production Handbook:
http://www.luresext.edu/sites/default/files/DGPHorderform_1stEdition_case_spiral.pdf

Iowa State University Dairy Goat Extension:
https://www.extension.iastate.edu/dairyteam/dairy-goats-and-sheep


This podcast is sponsored by the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners as well as USDA National Institute of Food and Agriculture, Agricultural and Food Research Initiative Competitive Program, Antimicrobial Resistance grant # 2020-04197.

Questions or comments about today's episode can be directed to DairyGoatExtension@iastate.edu

Transcript

Michelle: 0:33

Hello, I'm Dr. Michelle Buckley from Iowa State University's College of Veterinary Medicine. Thanks so much for joining us on Baas and Bleats, sponsored by the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners. Just a quick note before we get started. This work is also supported by the USDA National Institute of Food and Agriculture, Agricultural and Food Research Initiative Competitive Program, Antimicrobial Resistance Grant No. 2020-04197, which funds my research on improving antibiotic stewardship in dairy goats to assure food safety and milk quality. As always, if you have any questions about any of our episodes, please email them to dairygoatextension at iastate.edu. I hope you enjoyed today's show. Thanks for joining us today on season one of Boz and Bleats, the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners Podcast. This season we're focusing on improving milk quality and food safety in dairy goats. Today's guest is a repeat guest, Mr. Ryan Andrus of Bridgeman Hill Dairy in Vermont. As I said, he was a previous guest on episode two, which was titled If You Can't Measure It, You Can't Manage It. And he's back today to help me tease out what makes a great symbiotic relationship between dairy goat producers and veterinarians. So let's start off by talking a little bit about the different types of dairy goat operations that you've been involved with over the years, Ryan.

Ryan: 2:22

Sure. I started on a small farmstead that was making Chev and distributing it mostly to the Bay Area, specifically Silicon Valley, which turns out there's lots of uh people there with expendable income that love cheese. So that was that worked pretty well. And then uh from there I moved up to Northern California, started a large dairy for a big company up there, um, and was there for quite a while, and and they were owned by a parent company that ended up purchasing several other large goat milk processing facilities uh in the western U.S. So over the years I got a chance to act as sort of a producer liaison where I went out and visited uh the producers for these companies and got to know them and also helped troubleshoot issues as they came up. So it was about building relationships with the dairy farmers that were producing milk for these various companies. And then um helping them with uh things like becoming certified humane, uh troubleshooting milk quality issues, or herd health issues, management issues, training issues, bilingual issues, um, things like that where where it was really um enjoyable for me because I got to meet other farmers and and get to know them very well. And as somebody who has a lot of goats and has always been around a lot of goats, it there's it there's like a camaraderie that you feel when you come across other people where it's like, oh, you you understand me and you understand me, and this is like we we have this mutual respect and understanding that allows for uh a functional relationship to develop. And so there definitely were times where I met as a as a sort of consultant, I would meet the farmer and their veterinarian on site at the farm uh for various you know troubleshooting efforts or building herd management plans or disease management plans or prevention plans, things like that. Um hoof trimming plans, you know, all that parasite management, all that kind of stuff. So um I did see farms from you know anywhere from like 30 goats to 3,000 goats, let's say. So somewhere in that in that range, and probably most of them landing right in the middle of that. Um and so that was that was fun and hopefully prepares me to have a good conversation with you today.

Michelle: 4:44

Well, I you've already got me curious. So it sounds like you could have, in some cases, acted like a liaison between the producer and the veterinarian.

Ryan: 4:53

Yeah, definitely. Um I would say not as not as often. It was more between the creamery and the farmer. Um but but certainly there were recommendations or you know, because this spanned like several different states and uh different dairy regions and in areas where there weren't a lot of dairy vets at all, whether they're cow, goat, or sheep, they were just they just weren't there. So, you know, there was people dealing with um very little support, and then there were people dealing with uh a lot of expertise, but just having a hard time of like integrating the recommendations coming from the veterinarian.

Michelle: 5:31

Sure, sure. So but the things that you were there to talk about with them might have sparked conversations with their veterinarians, right?

Ryan: 5:39

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And there were times where the veterinarian reached out to me for clarification or for a question about something, but yeah, definitely.

Michelle: 5:47

Yeah. So I guess my first question is when you were talking with those producers, what were kind of the biggest complaints or concerns that they had about working with their veterinarian without, you know, throwing anyone under the bus. Um, but like what are some common concerns that producers have that maybe veterinarians aren't aware of or have a hard time addressing from your perspective?

Ryan: 6:12

Yeah, I would say the most common thing I heard was that you know, my my veterinarian, like he or she doesn't really know goats very well. And they received you know more training in cows or or or other large animals. Um I mean, I think it's just cows. There's no other large animals that they're getting trained in. And so um the the sort of awareness of the different between difference between the species in terms of management and nutritional needs and veterinary needs and disease detection, disease prevention, disease management, all that stuff is there's a lot of crossover, of course, between the species, but there are subtle differences that of course are going to be um magnified when you have thousands of animals or hundreds of animals, and you know, really important to to sort of know and understand the ins and outs. And a lot of this was sort of before I think the veterinary community really started to use like I don't know if it's social media or just internet to like have vet groups that are coming together to share information about small ruminants, and it there was sort of the siloed effect, like regionally, where people, if if there weren't a lot of goats in their area, they weren't really able to go and get that information, or maybe they weren't interested in getting that information because they just had like one goat client and then like 25 cow clients, so it wasn't really like the top of their list, right? So um that was like one of the main complaints that I would hear is just like there there was a lack of understanding of like this the species-specific issues that come up, and then maybe another one was um suggestions that were from my in my opinion, like spot on from coming from the veterinarian, but the integration of like uh applied management was missing, and so it was like you need to heat treat your colostrum to prevent like spreading Staph aureus or hormones or CAE onto the next generation, but but not and then telling them like here's here's the temperature and here's for how long, but like not really helping them to understand like how you would actually implement that on a farm where you're not doing it at all currently, and just looking around the the veterinary looking around realizing like does this farmer even have the capacity to heat treat colostrum? Do they do they have the labor? Do they have the management capability to undertake this? You know, so it's like yeah, that may have been the right suggestion, but helping that, like supporting that further to to sort of uh an applied management, you know, success rate would w was missing. So they you know, sometimes I'd show up and be like, well, this is what they told me to do. I said, Well, that's really what you need to do. But you know, we need to talk about how you're going to do that in order to for this to be successful. So I would that's just two two things that come to mind right there. So sort of goat knowledge overall, and and then um the act actual application of practices that are required.

Michelle: 9:12

Right. And with the second one, I would have to imagine that a lot of that stems from not having a good understanding of what is actually happening on a day-to-day basis at the facility. Like if you if you haven't taken the time to walk through and and you know get to know what they're working with and who they're working with, then you can't really understand their capacity. But at the same time, it it all comes back to time, and time is money as a veterinarian and a producer. So if your vet's gonna bill you hourly, it might not be within your financial capacity or or you may not think that it's worth the money to say, well, let's take an hour or two and walk through our facility and really get to know it. Um, because you have to bill you for that time, and um it's it's probably not gonna pay dividends right that very second. But down the road, um it may be you know the thing that gets you more value in those recommendations you're getting from your veterinarian.

Ryan: 10:15

Yeah, that's that's a very good point. And I think um the sort of clarity with which you just explained that is also uh something that's oftentimes missing on site. And it's in some way, in some ways it's the elephant in the room when a veterinarian shows up, is like as soon as they get out of their truck or maybe even their drive, like the billing has started. So let's like get to it and let's be efficient and let's be effective and let's let let's talk pragmatically about the suggestions I'm putting forth and you know how how they're going to impact your financials down the road. Is it immediate? Is it midterm? Is it you know years from now, and and sort of why the investment is worth it in the opinion of the veterinarian and then how to go about it. And you're right, it's uh there is probably more and more um information available online in terms of like management practices and how to put this stuff in into play. And there there are some books that have come out that I think are are are more effective. But some of the stuff that I'm picturing as we're talking happened like 15 years ago or more, and a lot of that information back then wasn't wasn't around, but it is now. So hopefully, hopefully there are more and more tools, including this podcast, that people can access to to sort of fill in some of these holes.

Michelle: 11:33

So from a veterinary perspective, I think it behooves us. And when I was in practice, I really tried hard to do this, but um letting people know up front, communication is key, right? So letting people know up front, yes, I'm I will be happy to show up at your property, either you know, for an emergency call or for a walkthrough to to build more of a consulting relationship, but it is going to cost money, and this is how much money it's going to cost. Um because we're not gonna get anybody anywhere by saying, Oh yeah, well, we'll bail you later, like don't worry about it. Um, or kind of you know, lowballing, oh well, if it if we can do it quick, then it'll only be you know X amount of dollars. So I would always really try and be up front and say, I charge however much as an hourly rate to drive to your facility, it's gonna cost X amount. Um, so you're looking at somewhere between this and this, depending on how long it takes. Um and if we can, you know, sometimes if I was gonna be in the area anyway, um I might say, well, I'm gonna be out there anyway, so we'll split the call charge, or something like that. But um, but I think being upfront about cost and knowing, understanding that our clients are always going to be concerned about that, is kind of the important first step in building a healthy relationship, right? It's the elephant in the room, like you said, and it just needs to be addressed.

Ryan: 13:01

Yeah, it needs to be addressed, and it and I think reflecting on how any relationship like this is going to be a two-way street to where if you're gonna charge that, you want to feel like you're bringing something to the table that's really helpful. And I realize in this conversation, we're probably talking to people who have a couple of goats and and and also hopefully people that have a couple thousand goats, right? We're we're hoping to sort of expand that gap, which is a lot to ask in a conversation, but you know, knowing your client as a veterinarian, knowing, you know, what the situation is, and it's not gonna happen immediately, but you're you have to build into a relationship as a veterinarian, getting to know who this person is, um, maybe it's a family, maybe it's a business, and what their limit limitations are capability-wise for implementing things um and detecting things. And are they planning like have they already planned into a budget like veterinary costs annually? Uh most farmers do that, obviously. They need to. They they know that it's it's a part of of having that many animals is budgeting for it. And there's probably people you showed up to when you were practicing that didn't have that budgeted, that you know, had pets, and or four or five goats, or whatever they had, and and so you show up often in those situations, very late in the game, where there's a very, very sick animal that's you know, possibly uh on death's door, and they've been using Google to try and like solve this problem, or or calling friends, or whatever they've been doing, and they're just draught, they're emotional, um, and they want you to save the day, and you show up and you say, That's a that's a dying goat, and you you don't want to you don't and you say that in your head, right? You say that in your head, oh oh boy, what am I walking into here? You probably already know when you're on your way, right? And when you open the door, you get out, you look in the barn, and you know, it's just this depressing moment of like, well, we're gonna need to put this goat down, and that's not why they called me. You know, so it's it's a really tough dynamic with, again, a lot of uh emotion, a lot of you know, money, time is money, as you mentioned, and so it's it's tough. And I think it's it's relationship building ultimately from both sides of this equation. It's relationship building. If you're gonna have animals, you you don't have them just for a moment, you have them for years. And so you need you need to cultivate a relationship with a veterinarian that is functional and enjoyable, and you know, they're getting paid for their time, but you're getting something out of it at the same moment.

Michelle: 15:37

Absolutely. And honestly, if I could get one point across in this episode, I would like it to be that it is only going to benefit producers and veterinarians in the long run to start a relationship early. Start it before there's a problem. Um, and honestly, there's always a problem, like there's always something that needs to be addressed. Um, but before you have a train wreck and you're calling at three o'clock in the morning, I really can't think of a situation in my experience or in the experience of any vets I've ever talked to where going out, doing a walkthrough didn't wind up being worth it in the end. And so I would really, really strongly encourage people to factor that into their budget for the coming year. Um to find a vet in your area that is um competent, and I'm sure producers, you know, everybody talks, so there's there are networks out there um where you can identify someone um worth your time or potentially worth your time to work with, um, and have them come out and say, this is what we've got. Um, from my perspective, things that I wanted to know before I left a farm when I did these types of visits, I kind of had four major categories that I wanted to hear about, just generally speaking, that I think would apply to any size operations. Um, number one, what is the goal? What are we trying to do here? That could be production-wise, that could be how many animals are we trying to have, that could be, you know, what kind of death loss are we trying to, you know, mitigate right now. Um, but what are our overall our goals? Whatever those that means to you as a producer? What are your limiting factors? Is space a concern for you? Are you do you need to build another barn because you're maxed out on space right now? Um are you limited by funds and you can only spend X amount of dollars because your milk check is this? That's the case for most large-scale producers, and that's totally fair, but we need to know what parameters we're working within. If you have standard operating procedures already in place, especially for like disease management and detection, that's something that we really like to know when we're coming in. Um, that maybe something needs to be tweaked, or it may just need to be something that we're aware of so we know how you're classifying certain diseases. Um with that, also what drugs do you keep on site? Um that's always something the veterinarian's gonna want to know. And as we move into the next phase of um of federal uh regulations where all drugs, all antibiotics on site need to be prescribed by a veterinarian, that's gonna become more tightly regulated and we'll be more aware of that. But um, you should always let your veterinarian know, hey, we've got X, Y, and Z. Um and they might say, Oh, that's great. They might say, you know, we should try this other drug, but um, that needs to be a conversation, no matter what. The last category that I always want to know about is what are your needs? How can I help you? Because if you don't know what you're looking for or what your weaknesses are, or um, because there's always room for improvement, right? So, from the producer perspective, what do you think producers need to have ready when the veterinarian shows up?

Ryan: 20:21

Well, I almost think that you know what you just outlined would be a wonderful way to start off a relationship with a with a farmer. And so when somebody calls your clinic and is looking, you know, they're they're a new client is just sort of almost like poise those questions up front and upon your first visit actually go go through them, maybe sitting down or even just walking through the farm talking about them because um it could probably you know help help avoid lots of potential conflict or just sticky areas between the the dynamic and the relationship. So yeah, good work on that, and I hope lots of people record those those four categories because it's really critical. Um so yeah, I like that. So uh you asked me what as a farmer what are how did I prepare it? Sure. Okay, so most of most of the time that I had a veterinarian coming to visit was ultrasounding. And there's you know various I've used ultrasound equipment myself and to Varying degrees of accuracy, but really it's uh the equipment that a lot of veterinarians carry around or or have access to is not something that I could afford to purchase on my own, and it can be very accurate and very quick, um, depending on the experience of the veterinarian. So I usually historically have had like two to three visits that are centering around ultrasounding my pregnant groups. And more or less, just so people know, what we're looking for is pregnant or open, and how many days into gestation is the dough. And that will determine for me, sort of grouping for nutritional, um matching nutritional needs with her stage and gestation, right? So basically far off and close-up is what you're looking at there. Or goats that are still in lactation and pregnant, and you know, how at what date should we dry them, etc. So it's not just who's pregnant, who's not, but really how many days into this gestation are they? And it's really um at scale, it's really important information to have and to have it accurately. So uh when I prepare for one of those, I have you know, my pregnant group or the group I hope is pregnant, um, or usually it's multiple groups, I have all that information pre-worked, you know, exactly who's in the pen, um, when they were exposed to a buck. Um a lot of times we record any mounting that we see. Um so you know, how many days into gestation do we think this dough is? I have all that information on a spreadsheet, and then I get I make sure I have an extra set of hands or two to help sort of um make the day go really efficient. And it's usually a half day or less, but just like get the goats into position so that so the veterinarian is really just ultrasounding, which is not holding a goat or he's not wrestling a goat for you, you know, it's a it's all sort of built in. And then usually after the ultrasound is complete, that's when I have sort of like a walkthrough and a list of questions that are outstanding from uh the specific ultrasound that we're doing. So those, you know, maybe we go to the kids and we start there and we just look through the kid barn, um, and then we might go to the teenagers and then the milkers. Um sometimes we might look at production data, um, look at feed and nutrition, look at feet, um, look at overall like coat, possibly grab some fecals if we're concerned about any parasitism that might be happening. You know, it's it's really like that that type of situation. I also do a drug inventory, um so beforehand, so I can place an order with them, usually before they show up, uh, so that I don't have to pay shipping if they can get it to their clinic and then bring it on the truck, and then I put it in my fridge. You know, so it's just sort of like grouping all of those things into one experience like three times a year, or how however often you're doing a pregnancy scanning. So um that's that's how I prepare for it. Um, but that's really at scale. So if you're if you're not regardless of your scale, one of the things that I generally do is like walking through the farm is like, hey, will you will you point out anything you notice that's abnormal or doesn't look right, or maybe like if you see areas we can improve on. And just you know laying that out there before you start walking around often sets the tone for the conversation where it's like I'd I'd like your advice on this. I'd like you know, whatever you see, just tell me and and uh we can talk about it, or I can like make a change. Um and so that that I think is helpful. That takes again relationship building, um, but maximizing the time that somebody's that an expert is there on your facil on your facility, on your property, helping you, able to help you, willing to help you, uh, willing to offer advice, suggestions, even if you don't choose to take them or if you just you know mull them over for a while, just getting that information out while they're on site rather than having them come back for something like that, um, is huge. And that just takes preparedness, right? And so, like you said, if it's three in the morning and you're coming out in an emergency, you're probably not gonna be prepared for that. So um, but but again, um just maximizing that time I think is is beneficial for any goat owner of any scale, and being willing to hear, you know, like a lot of really good veterinarians are gonna come on site and realize that your goats have CL, your goats have CAE, you have overcrowding, you have uh, you know, feed issues, you're not trimming your hooves. Like there's a lot of things as a as a producer you can't really hide. So you're kind of vulnerable. It's kind of like, you know, it's like you're letting someone come in and just look at your house. It's like, is it dirty? Is it clean? Is it a mess? Is it trashed? You know, it's like they they can see everything. You can't really hide it from somebody that knows what they're looking at.

Michelle: 26:34

That's a very good point. And the one thing that I would comment on that, because as a like brand new veterinarian, when I would go out on operations, you know, farms, whether it was a dairy or a homestead, um, or just you know, someone's pets, I would I did a bad job of communicating my concerns to them, in that where you said, okay, well, I I put it out there when they show up, like I want you to comment, I would probably give them a little bit more honest uh feedback than they were than clients were looking for, and maybe they weren't even looking for it. Um and so I started realizing that I was doing this and uh tried to change my method of communication to before where I was saying, oh well, you have this, that, and this, and you should be doing these three other things instead. So, you know, that's not good. I realized that there's a reason everything happens on a farm. Um, and no matter what the purpose of that farm is, there's there's a reason that producers do things a certain way, and so instead of attacking them and saying, Well, that's not right, don't do that, do this instead, asking the question of hey, I noticed you do this, why is that? Um, because there's an answer nine times out of ten. There's always there's exceptions to every rule, but most of the time there's an answer and it's happening that way for a reason, and it's not happening the way that I think it should be for a reason as well. And so um sometimes it's really hard to come to a situation with an open mind, um, depending on your previous relationship with this person, or if you've heard something about them in the community before you started working with them, um, or you know, even just when you drive up and you're like, well, that's not right. Um, but just stopping and saying, why is that not right instead of um jumping to conclusions can be really productive and also is a great way to not get people's hackles up. Um, no one wants to be told that something's not right on their farm.

Ryan: 28:49

Yeah, I think there's, and I don't know how much training you guys receive in this, but there's to some degree it's like the veterinary version of bedside manor, right? Like there's there's that, and then there's also just like um as a veterinarian showing up on site, needing to have the ability to analyze someone's interpersonal skills and um their ability to sort of manage situations, not just like goats, but systems and also people, and you can really get a sense of that just when you're just walking around a facility for the first time. You can get a sense of like, you know, and I guess it's just reading the room, essentially, right? It's just looking reading the environment, looking around, seeing are things kept up, are things cleaned up, are they picked up? Um, and what's the level of care? And I think assessing that, like, without even trying, it's just like an innate reflex that a veterinarian probably should have when they come to a farm for the first or second or third time, and then allowing that to impact how they go about like delineating the information, as you said, is like, okay, well, you know, this this person is clearly trying to do everything they can to create a good environment for their herd and to create plenty of milk or whatever it is they're trying to produce. So I can really come at them with something that I think will help improve their situation. Or somebody who you can tell is barely keeping it together. And uh you need to be a little bit more thoughtful, possibly, about how you approach something that's really uh, you know, maybe it it comes in the form of a compliment sandwich or a uh bit of a backhanded compliment where you're you're it's not like it's preloaded or intended, but you're just sort of delivering it in a way where it's like, yeah, I noticed like this buck looks great, but you haven't trimmed his hooves in like a year, you know. Um but he's got great posture outside of the fact he can't stand up straight because his feet hurt. He looks like he's got good genetics, you know, or it whatever. I think there's just there's different ways to um deliver potentially bad information or or just uh suggestions and and urgings and into a different direction. But I think ultimately what you said your approach initially was is is really what farmers want. It just might take a minute to develop the relationship, but most of us um don't have time to like deal with just the we want, we're very pragmatic, right? Farmers have to be pragmatic and in in essence to kind of continue to do their work and to get it done on time and to get to get to any sort of other life commitments that we might have, whether it be family or whatever it is that we're trying to do outside of being farmers. So I think pragmatism is huge. Um and so acknowledging that when you're working with farmers and and not skating around things, but making sure that um you're delivering bad news in a good way is is important.

Michelle: 31:53

It's kind of made me think of um because you're right, I mean there's farmers don't have time um or really like mental capacity a lot of times to start trying to solve any extra problems on their own, right? That's why you call in someone like a veterinarian, whether it's an emergency situation that you don't have the training or you know the license to deal with, or if it's a more overarching like production type issue. Um and and I think for farmers, in my mind anyway, it kind of turns into like this big like tornado of of daily life that is like whirling around you all the time, and as outside assistance, we can provide a little bit of order to that, and I think that that order is what helps make um changes implementable, so being able to really clearly figure out what the problem is, um, and then I like to use the SMART GOL acronym um to like kind of spell things out for myself, not just you know, on farms, but um when I'm thinking about problems that I'm trying to sort out myself at work. So uh SMART goals, the S stands for specific, um, M is measurable, A is attainable, R is relevant, and T is time-based. So I think as a veterinarian, in a very general sense, our job is to be able to provide a solution that meets these requirements. Um, so we need to really clearly state what it is and how we're going to fix it and how we're gonna know that it's fixed, that's the measurable part, um, and make it attainable, which is what we talked about before with knowing the facility and um what is a reasonable expectation for them. Um we need to make sure we're addressing the problem that this farm has that's relevant to this farm. Um and then give them a deadline. Say, I'm going to follow up with you, I'll call you in two weeks to see how this is going. If you'd like, I can come back out in a month, and I'll just go through the parlor and see, you know, how the milkers are doing with their routine. Um or whatever it is, but um we can provide order in a very chaotic system.

Ryan: 34:19

No, I I I think that's like best case scenario right there. And and not that it's uncommon, I'm just saying like that's that would be uh the result of a successfully built relationship.

Michelle: 34:30

Where that's what you're looking for, though, right?

Ryan: 34:33

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of farmers maybe don't know what they're looking for until until something like this shows up. And at least back when I was doing more of the consulting, it seemed like, and and I think this has changed in the last five to ten years, but it seemed like a lot of producers sort of got swept up in the um like interest in goat dairy products, and like the consumer interest happened. You know, there were there were some artisanal um creameries making great cheese, and nobody really knew about it, and then all of a sudden, in like the late 90s, early 2000s, it it became a thing. And so a lot of farmers that had like 30 goats were approached by a creamery. Can you can you now have 300 goats? Right? And so this was a this was a common thing that happened, at least out west, with uh some of the early producers like Redwood Hill, Laura Chanel, um, Cypress Grove, where they were they were on the forefront of um building these businesses and building the demand for the products. And so a lot of farmers were like, okay, I I guess I'll quit my day job and we'll just try and do this. Um so there's a lot of people that came into goats and commercial goats with a variety of like management experience or animal management background, and it was a common thing where you'd see like hobby farmers that then scaled, right? And when anybody scales anything, there's always going to be um a learning curve associated with it. And the the best veterinarians I saw in the interactions were were aware of that sort of in industry norm and were really helpful in like assisting these people as they as they learned how to manage at scale and the systems you just talked about and implementing those systems, and and maybe it wasn't their their background didn't involve um building systems like that. And so it was kind of a new concept to them. So I think that um what you're talking about was actually really common, and and more and more I hear stories about people who you know their family has a cow dairy and they decided to branch out and do something different and get goats to diversify. So you hear more and more about people approaching this industry from that angle, which is not what I'm talking about, but um, those people maybe are more um exposed to systems and and herd management as a whole. And so, as a as a veterinarian, learning who your clients are, what their background is, um, and and where they're coming from is a big part of helping to implement systems like you're talking about, and and how to support that so it's actually successful. And and the the acronyms you went over with Smart SMART Goals, I forgot that acronym. It's that's amazing. It's like, yeah, that's the bet that's the best way. So another way, you know, hopefully that kind of thing could be, and maybe it is like included in training for for veterinarians, but it's it sounds pretty essential in if you want to be a large animal vet and you want to work with farmers, um, to sort of have that training. And it's not it's not like it's psychology, but it's more like it's uh just just learning how to read the room of the producer and where they're coming from and where they're farm with the system where they're at in the moment and figuring out how to best help them. It isn't just showing up and saying, like, I know the anatomy of a goat, I'm going to diagnose this, and then I'm gonna leave. You know, it's a it's a lot, there's a lot more to it than that, right? It's a lot different than um than you know, like someone bringing a cat to a clinic to get vaccinated, right? This is this is a whole different ballgame. And I think the best veterinarians that I've worked with over the years, like they recognize that the most important thing, the most impactful thing, I should say, the most impactful thing for them while they're on on site is what are they leaving the farmer with? Because he or she is going to be with that herd every single day. Um, whereas the veterinarians just out once every six months or whatever it is, once every few months or once a year. And so you can treat an animal in that visit and save its life or improve its life, but you could also make an impact on the farmer to, you know, maybe they need to expand because they're overcrowding their herd. And if you can help them see that, that would impact the entire herd for indefinitely, possibly, right? So it's not necessarily like I'm here to fix this goat and then leave. It's how can I how can I implement um help this farmer implement systems to improve the quality of life for their entire herd?

Michelle: 39:17

Right. And I think what you're getting at is management, right? Like managing people, managing systems, managing animals. That's what veterinarians need to be competent at. I'm not even gonna say experts at, but we need to understand that that's what we're doing when we walk on to a food animal production facility of any kind. Um, there's a lot of herd health and a lot of management. Um, it's certainly not anything that's taught in schools, as far as I'm aware, um, at this time. Um I honestly don't even know how you would do that. I guess that's why I'm a veterinarian and I'm not in middle management in corporate America somewhere. Um, but but I right. Um I think I'm sure it would be beneficial, you know, if we could cram one more thing into the curriculum at vet school. Um yeah, absolutely, management would be incredibly helpful. But number one, there are some people that were born to do that type of thing, and they have just have that personality innately, and there's some people who really just hate that type of thing or weren't made to do it. Um, and so I think understanding where our personality types fall and what our strengths are that we're coming into this such situation with is kind of the first step, and then where the actual issue is. Um I have started, you know, realizing how to deal with these things by thinking about issues that I deal with that aren't related to a dairy. Like right now, I'm in grad school and I'm I'm trying to study for my clinical pharmacology boards, and that is a really big umbrella, right? Just studying for boards, that's huge. So at first, I when my boss first sat me down and said, Okay, here's what you're gonna do to get ready for boards, it was a very broad picture. And it was very overwhelming. And I realized I needed to break that down into really small steps and goals and say, Okay, this is the first thing I need to do. I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z to get that accomplished, and then after that, I need to do this next step. Um, and so that's By looking at my own life and how I handle questions and problems that I have, that's kind of how I've learned to relate to my clients, and and that was what I did in practice. And that kind of goes for whether you're dealing with production animal stuff or even dogs and cats. Making it really understandable and manage manageable for people is a universal concept. It's just how we apply it with goats specifically, I think.

Ryan: 42:01

Yeah, I think that that's that's wonderful. It sounds like a lot of introspection. So you're looking at how you solve problems and then you're um figuring out how to use that information to evolve your ability to, you know, consult or help as a veterinarian with as a farmer or an animal owner, um, finding a veterinarian that resonates with you in that way um maybe is worth the search.

Michelle: 42:25

It's really like we have to break a cycle, right? Like things keep happening over and over a certain way that is problematic, what generally in the terms we're speaking in, because they can't do it any other way, or they don't have time to fix it or something. But it's a cycle, right? And so we have to step in, whether you're a consultant or a veterinarian, um, or even just the producer, like you need to get into the mindset of I have to do this differently, or bad things are gonna keep on happening. Um, or it's going to snowball into something even worse. So it's really like you're breaking a cycle, and that is like when you're trying to change someone's repeated actions, that's a really hard thing to do, right?

Ryan: 43:06

Oh yeah, change is very hard. And in in a situation like this, I've seen you can like see the wheels turning in the in the farmer's head, and they're like, How on earth am I going to implement what this person is currently suggesting to me? Like, I I can't handle one more thing in my day. And here they're asking me to change, you know, something massive like like a colostrum program. And yeah, it's just, I guess, reading the room, that bedside manner thing, and like you say, maybe it's not taught so much in school, but I think I'd like to trust that the veterinarians out there who possess those skills and have recognized them as being necessary are gonna rise to the top, and they're gonna be they're gonna be the ones that have successful practices that um have good reputations around town that people talk about. And so I think that uh that happens. I mean I've seen it. It's it you it definitely happens, and uh it's it's in my eyes, it's an essential part of what veterinarians are doing is really getting to know their clients and figuring out how to best help them.

Michelle: 44:07

And at the end of the day, I mean I definitely used to get very frustrated with getting called for awful situations that you know I was the last resort for. Like, it's really hard to show up to an emergency call, especially and say, Well, why are we here? Why didn't we deal with this, you know, two days ago when the animal first got off feed? But at the end of the day, I mean, we're not different. Veterinarians are overwhelmed, we feel overworked and underappreciated, and most of the time underpaid, and producers feel the same way. And we would do things better if we could, but most of the time we don't know how. So, a lot of times when I would get frustrated, you know, I you get yourself all worked up in the truck on the way out to Distosha that should have called you at 7 instead of 10 p.m. or whatever. Um, and then you get there and you meet the people and you see the animal and you learn a little bit about what they're doing, and you're like, oh, I get it. I know why this is the way that it is. And I then you feel really bad and you're like, ah, I'm such a jerk. Um, but it's not an easy job that any of us are trying to do. And I think if we can give each other a little bit of grace in saying, Okay, I get it, you're not that different from me. But that doesn't mean we have to accept where we're at. We can do better and we can help each other do better. Um and it's that's gonna make our lives better in the end, and our animals' lives better in the end, and our product better in the end. Um but it is very hard sometimes to just not be incredibly frustrated when you show up to a call. Um, and and that kind of leads me into another aspect of this I wanted to get into, which was when we when we do get an emergency call, because we've kind of been talking more about the consulting aspect of this relationship, but when you do have a single either an outbreak investigation where you know there's something going on with multiple animals, or like a single animal, say a dystopia, um, where you're having trouble with a kid with a kidding or something like that, how can we mitigate the stress and the frustration of those situations? Um, and it makes me think about as a veterinarian, you know, how many times I would show up to a farm and they I would get called for even just like giving vaccines to a couple of animals or um or uh a sick animal and it's out in a field, um, it's got an acre lot that it grazes, and the client hasn't caught it, can't catch it. Um, there's no handling facilities when they do catch it. Um, and that's like a huge waste of my time. We're stressing the animal out, right? Trying to chase it around a field. Um, and so just kind of how how people can be prepared for those types of uh visits as well.

Ryan: 46:59

Oh, that sounds awful. I can picture that. That sounds awful.

Michelle: 47:02

That was my daily life when I was in practice. And it kind of got to be a joke. I would just be like, okay, well, I'll get my cardio in, but um also a conversation that happened on the phone when we scheduled the appointment of hey, okay, I'm gonna be out at 10 o'clock. Let's have the animal caught up by 9.30. Um, or just keep them in when you give them breakfast or something like that, because uh you learn pretty quickly that number one, it's a waste of my time and it throws off my day, but also I'm gonna charge you for the time. Um and so it will behoove you as the producer to say to have that animal ready to go.

Ryan: 47:40

Oh yeah, I I can't imagine not. Like I'm I'm not the kind of person that would be in that situation. Um I could picture it, of course, but in my mind, I feel like it's totally fair for the veterinarian to set up you know accountability and expectations ahead of time like that. And if they're not met. Um I don't I don't know if like you know, calling them as a client is is like an option if you can if you have the ability to pick and choose clients. Honestly, I I mean that that's how I would approach it if I were a veterinarian, is like, I'm gonna sit in my truck, like the the billiometer is happening is already on. I'm gonna sit in my truck until you get the animal where you said it was going to be. I mean, that sounds like a jerk move, but I'm just you know, it somehow you have to help the client give them an opportunity to understand what your day is like, why this is impacting you in in negative ways. And I feel like that's a responsible goat owner is gonna understand it. They're gonna understand it and they're gonna respond, but not maybe not everyone, right? And maybe those other ones aren't the best clients. I don't know. I'm not I don't want to be dismissive here, but it it feels to me like those of us on the other end of this you know conversation need to own that accountability. We have to. We have to own those expectations and and like pull it off, because otherwise it just doesn't work.

Michelle: 49:09

And letting people know those expectations is important, right? If you've if you've never had a veterinarian and you think that we are gonna go out like Dr. Doolittle and call your goat in, that is not what's gonna happen. So um I think setting those expectations was something I didn't do originally, saying, like explicitly saying you need to have your animals caught up and ready for me, because I assumed, like you did, that people would understand that. So um the onus is on both sides here. And and even for you know, prank checks, like if you're checking a couple hundred animals, like it sounds like you do every so often, um having the facilities to do that quickly, um having a shoot system or headlocks or something where you can just say boom, boom, boom, we're going down the row and we're gonna ultrasound quickly, it can be a very efficient process if you have the handling facilities. And if if I have to go catch every single goat by hand and wrangle them and you know, stand backwards holding them while I'm ultrasounding, I mean, that's gonna take a lot of time and kill my back, and there will be a surcharge for back pain.

Ryan: 50:13

Yep, and I think uh just hearing that like on the other side of that equation, like we should we should be expecting that as farmers. If we're that complacent in in how we handle this this relationship, I think that's that should be expected. So, but you're right, clarifying that stuff up front is huge. And and I think for you, honoring your your time and being like, This this client is not worth my time, essentially, unfortunately. Unfortunately for them and their animals, they're gonna have to keep shopping for the right vet because I'm I'm not the right one. My expectations are too high and they can't meet them. And just being real about that. So, anyway, uh yeah, accountability, expectations from both sides. You know, as a farmer and a goat owner, I would say um we would want our veterinarians to be accountable to like being you know, honesty if they don't know, like telling us up front. I'm not sure, but it could be X, Y, and Z. Oh, okay, how do we determine if it's X, Y, or Z? Well, we're gonna have to run some tests, and that's gonna cost you know, this many dollars. And you know, sort of laying out those things, and as a farmer, making sure you're asking those questions. How much is that blood blood work gonna cost? And what what am I ultimately gonna do with the results of it? Am I gonna just sell this animal? Well, maybe I don't maybe I should just sell this animal anyway, because it she's not her sale is not even going to cover the cost of that blood work and the analysis and shipping it to you know Cornell or Davis or wherever the blood work's going. So I think um having like bringing that pragmatism to those conversations in the in the expectation part, the the goat owner has to sort of own that that end of it and like push for those questions to get answered. Um and like we talked about in the other episode, um, it's it's sort of like what what are you gonna do with the information you gain from doing these, whatever the analysis might be? And answering that question and asking that question as a farmer, you know, is it worth doing this blood work and what are we gonna do differently if it comes back positive or negative, or or you know, just having that conversation ahead of time so they know what they're getting into. But I think having the expectations on the farmer side of it of like, what do you need from this visit? What do you need from this relationship? Um, it's not just prescriptions, it's not just you know, this one goat that happens to be sick this one time, it's it's a lot more than that, and how are you going to get what you need out of the relationship from the farmer end of things too? So yeah, I think having those conversations um and making sure that the information that you would gain is is gonna be something you can apply and make a difference in your herd with. But ultimately the collaboration is to make it so your business is more functional and your herd is more comfortable, right? And it's a one of the things that I wanted to bring up was I see this or have seen it frequently, is farmers decouple nutrition from veterinary care. And I think that that is a mistake. And I think that if you have, especially a large amount of animals, um, your veterinarian and your nutritionist, if you have one, um they need to be I don't know, I don't want to say on the same page, but they need to at least know what each other is doing, more so the veterinarian understanding the what the nutritionist approaches and how they're going about it. And I think there can be a farmer can get caught in the middle of that, and they're hearing one thing from one party and another thing from another party, and it's not like jiving, and it's very frustrating, and ultimately the the goats are suffering and the financials are suffering. So I think that that's a very sticky area that everybody needs to be cautious of. And you know, having a vets show up to like a major problem in your herd, and it having it be nutritional in nature puts a veterinarian in a very difficult position, right?

Michelle: 54:20

There's a lot of egos involved. If we're, I mean, I think, um, because we have our area of expertise, right? It's animal health. Um and nutritionists, like nutrition is a very, you know, you can go way down that rabbit hole. Um, and I have a lot of respect for people who are very knowledgeable and and nutritionists, um, because that's not something that I was trained on extensively in vet school. Um, I would have needed to go get a master's or a PhD in nutrition to really feel comfortable giving nutritional recommendations for large-scale operations that were like tailored. Um, and and so I understand that a nutritionist is gonna come in with a chip on their shoulder if I come to them as a veterinarian and say, This isn't working. What you're doing is causing a problem. Um that's not gonna sound good either because they're like, Well, I'm the expert in this. Um, so how can you tell me that I don't know what I'm doing? Um, so it definitely that is a very sticky situation, and and that goes for any large-scale operation, I think, whether you're dealing with goats, cows, hogs, sheep, whatever, um that is definitely a a very um common point of contention on uh in production animal medicine. And so um using that same those same communication skills with your producer and your nutritionist, I think can get us very you know really far where we can say, look, here's what I'm seeing. Why why is this happening this way? Um, instead of just coming out and saying, this doesn't work. Um and then how can we come together and get you know, and and do the best thing for the animals? Because at the end of the day, what's good for the animals, good for the producers, good for the veterinarian and the nutritionist. So we need to keep them as our primary focus, and I think if we can do that, then everybody wins.

Ryan: 56:20

Yeah, I think as as the um the farmer in that in the mix of that dynamic is you're kind of the composer of like the orchestra, right? You have all the goats in one section, you have the nutritionist over here, the veterinarian over there, and you know, the the milk contract over there in the back, that's like the tuba. But um you you know, you you have to like have those expectations already aligned of like this is what my veterinarian's going to bring to the to the orchestra, this is what my nutritionist's bringing to the orchestra, and I have to figure out how to make sure they're not like pointing fingers at each other. And it's a lot, it's a lot for the veterinarian, for the farmer to have to manage, but it's essential because unless you can find the rare person that can do both, which is a very rare person, they are out there, but uh it's there's it's built-in like finger-pointing excuse, right? So um yeah, it's worth bringing up, but there's nothing we can like solve between the two of us in this conversation for anybody else, except that having that open communication is ideal, and ideally you would even have them in the same room as each other, with you managing the conversation like once a year, right? Ideally. Um there's also another part of that equation where you can have the nutritionist doing a great job, the veterinarian doing a great job, but the farmer not delivering the feed properly or screwing something up. There's a lot to screw up in between what's suggested from a nutritionist and what's actually consumed by the goat, right? There's there's a lot that can be screwed up in that equation too. So there's it's not like it's just A plus B equals C. So I think um But it was it was uh on my list of things to mention in this conversation, because you know, these uh when it comes to expectations, is there's lots of different parts of the orchestra that the farmer needs to sort of like manage.

Michelle: 58:13

And I think that goes for a lot of other people that come on the farm. I mean, we don't need to just you know throw nutritionists under the bus here. Um, but we veterinarians and and producers are gonna see you know drug reps um separately. A drug rep rep might come on the dairy and say, hey, I can do X, Y, and Z for you. This happens a lot in cow dairies, and and as goat dairy production ramps up and gets to be more popular, it may happen in that um in that arena as well. But um, or consultants, you know, coming on and talking with a producer and saying, well, your vet needs to be doing X, Y, and Z, and then um walking away, and now the producer and the veterinarian aren't on the same page. There are a lot of other um people that can get involved with that relationship and um have impacts on it. Um and and basically I think the moral of the story is we need to keep lines of communication open. Um and I would say early and often is the best rule. Um whether you're talking about you know some other person that is affecting your relationship, your nutritionist, a consultant, um a salesperson, whatever, or um even if we're going back to you know animal health, if if you have a sick animal that you're concerned about early and often, let your veterinarian know, hey, I've got someone off feed, a little concerned about it. Don't call three days later when they've been off feed the whole time and now they're you know screaming and lateral and on death's door.

Ryan: 59:50

Yeah, yep. The best remote. But I think it's important again, talking about this accountability thing is like n I learned early on, these are the like four or five things that when I call a veterinarian with a problem, they're gonna ask me, what's the body temperature? Like, how long has it been going on? What's what's the what does the manure look like? Is is the goat drinking water? You know, there's like whatever the handful of things are that your veterinarian's gonna like you don't you don't just call and say there's a problem and then they ask you four questions and you say, Oh, I I need to go check, let me call you back. Like you gotta have those things answered already ahead of time.

Michelle: 1:00:26

Right.

Ryan: 1:00:26

Um, and and what you what you're talking about there with all the different people whose voices or opinions might affect the overall situation. I I think it's probably ideal to have your veterinarian be your most trusted source of information. Wow. And then, right? Well, think about it, and then I mean I love that, but yeah, but I I think it makes it makes the most sense if you're talking about the problem with the herd or the animals. Right. Uh as long as your veterinarian, you have that trusted relationship with them. Absolutely. You can come to them and say, hey, somebody's trying to sell me this new milk replacer, and that veterinarian can tell you, oh yeah, that that product, I've heard a lot of good things about it. Or I had another client that used that product and like all the kids died, right? Right. There's there's huge information you can learn from just checking things against a trusted source. And again, in my opinion, ideally that should be the veterinarian, if at all possible, having that be your main sort of check checkpoint. Um, and it's not like you know, maybe there's some way, depending on your relationship with your veterinarian, that you can have conversations like that that don't have to wait six months. For them to come visit, whether it's an email or a phone call, something like that. Um, but yeah, I think uh if you have one point that's kind of helping filter out some of these other possible inputs coming in, because I know you're right, the the drug reps, all that stuff is is happening and is coming, and they're all fighting for business, and they're just looking to make money, and it's that that's kind of a tough thing to have to juggle in.

Michelle: 1:01:59

Right. Yeah. There's one question left that we need to answer before we wrap this up, and that is how do you find a great goat vet? Um, because we're not in vet schools, it's we don't cover small ruminants the same way that we cover, you know, small animals and pigs and cattle. It's something that you really have to go out and find the experience yourself. We don't have people in every, certainly not every town um in the US, but even every region. I mean, there are definitely goat-strong areas where I think there's probably, because there's a higher concentration of goats, there's more veterinarians working with them. Um but there's a lot of areas where, you know, people are gonna be listening and say, yeah, well, this is great. This is all I would love to have this for my veterinarian, but I can't find one that will even come out, or I can't find one that's halfway decent. And I certainly don't want people to think that they need to start like speed dating with in, you know, their veterinary pool in their town where they're like, oh, well, you don't check these boxes, I don't want to deal with you anymore, um, and have to go through that process. So um, as a producer, what what steps have you taken to be able to find veterinarians that you enjoy working with and that are productive or or add to your productivity, I should say, um, and you know, other friends that are producers as well. Like, what tips do you have for people for finding finding this unicorn out there that we've been talking about for this whole episode?

Ryan: 1:03:34

Yeah, um, great question. I would say the initial approach should be networking with other goat owners. Um maybe that's through the American Dairy Goat Association or just your community, goat shows, people you know, and just you know, as I mentioned, I think early on, like when a whatever your field is, your field of expertise, like if you're a goat farmer and then you get to talk to other goat farmers, it's almost like therapy because they actually understand you. So I think that network is essential anyway, but um, this is one of the many ways that that network can uh benefit your operation, is just asking around. And sometimes you have to pay a little bit more and pay a little bit more travel time, but what you get from the relationship is uh way, way, way worth it. And so I think that there's a there's a bit of a gamble that you have to undertake as a as a farmer or an animal owner to where you know there is a vet down the road who's willing to come up and it might be I don't know, $200 less per visit, but this other person that's available uh an hour and a half away would come uh for this much more money, but I would get a lot more out of the visit and sort of just sort of learning that, and the best way again is gonna be networking with other people, and then as I mentioned earlier, finding a veterinarian who's honest who can tell you, like, I don't know the answer to this, but I will find out for you. And and that sometimes is worth more than someone thinking they already know the answer to something, because because of uh, from what I understand, at least there's just a lot more information sharing that's very quick and very responsive in the vet community, like nationwide. The small ruminant vet community is like they're interested in helping other veterinarians who don't have a lot of sheep and goats in their area and in their practice, and so there's uh networking that happens with information that is very quick and very effective, and I I think that's like sort of like the new the new norm is if you can find somebody um or finding a practice, this is something that I had um have had luck with, finding a practice that has multiple vets and they have a good reputation, and maybe it's with cow farmers that you know, but they have uh somebody on their crew, one of their veterinarians, who specifically enjoys small ruminants, and that individual is like, oh I'll take that client, I want that client, or you know, and then and then that ends up being this like wonderful relationship where it's it's you're not working with the vet your neighbor who has cows works with, but it's the same practice, you're getting a different vet, and so networking through that way and just finding somebody who's both passionate about small ruminants and willing to like find out the answers, you know, unless again, unless you're in an area where there are lots of goat farms, and then in that case, it might be a pretty simple search. Um yeah, but it's it's I as a farmer, I see this similar as like when I when I built my parlor, like what what kind of equipment am I gonna go with? Okay, and there's a lot there's a financial element to it, but there's also a service element to it, and who knows who's gonna be around who's gonna help me fix my parlor two years from now when it stops working, or I need this one part repaired, or this, that, or the other. And I think in small ruminants, you're kind of used to dealing with obscure um things because it's not as common as like a cow dairy milking system or a cowderry chute or uh the design of the pens of the barn. So you're you're definitely already at this point used to dealing with sort of fringe knowledge. And so if you can find uh that person using those same sort of networking approaches, um that that's certainly the best. And I've also had um success with people in different parts of the country that are maybe more isolated where they'll they might have an expert come out once or twice, and that expert shows up and meets like a small room in an expert and meets with the veterinarian and the farmer, and they do sort of like a half day intensive, and then everybody learns a ton of information, and then that expert doesn't come back for years or something. But it's it's sort of having the veterinarian who knows who that expert might be and how they might be able to get them out, if that's feasible financially, if it's realistic. Uh you know, there's different ways to go about it, but certainly networking with existing um farmers and animal owners is is the best way.

Michelle: 1:08:07

Yeah, that makes me feel really good too, because when I started my practice, I mean I was fresh out of school and had done mainly dairy cow stuff, and so I started seeing all these goats and pigs and all kinds of stuff that weren't dairy cows, and I was like, I would just tell clients, look, I don't I don't know, I'm not an expert in this yet, but I'll come out and try, and I'll do my research, and I can connect with people and um I'll try and help you. And it was amazing to me how many people were like, that's amazing. I just want someone to come and help and try. Um, and that's all I'm asking for. And so um I would encourage veterinarians if you're in a community where there's no one serving um the small ruminant population, especially if there is, you know, a lot of production uh like production animal type settings, not just the companion animals, although those definitely need care as well and have a special place in my heart. Um, but just go try. I know it, you know, if you don't have time, you don't have time. Like if your schedule is overbooked, if you're just nervous and scared because you're not a goat person and you didn't grow up with with dairy production or anything like that, it's okay. Um, because most of the time people just want you to come out and try, and that's the point of this podcast is to get information out there and um and to be a resource. So even if a question isn't answered in this podcast, if if people have questions that they want to talk about, email us at um dairygoat extension at iastate.edu, and if we can't answer the question, we will put you in touch with someone who can and um and try and help in that respect. Um the other plug that I would say is for producers, if um you can always go on the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners website, um, which I'll put a link in the description for this episode. Um they have a Find a Practitioners page, so that's where veterinarians can go when they know that they like working on small ruminants and and they're looking for, you know, and they're willing to offer that service in your area. You can see where the closest one is and reach out and contact them and say, I need help.

Ryan: 1:10:23

So that's amazing. I didn't know that existed. That's there you go. That answers that last question. You can delete all that conversation. Um the only other thing I want to mention is, you know, when we getting back to that or orchestra analogy with like the different inputs on managing a farm is Google. Google has become like part of the orchestra, and I would imagine that a lot of veterinarians struggle with um showing up to a situation and being like, well, Google told me that, you know, I have floppy kids syndrome and all my kids are dying, and you know, or Google told me this, or Google, and I I could I can just only imagine that that's very a hard hurdle to sort of get over and get through. And I think as a farmer, we have to be cognizant of that. Like, don't start a conversation with, you know, I saw this, I mean you can bring it up, of course, but just be ready for I don't want to say like immediate dismissal, but like an eye roll.

Michelle: 1:11:20

An eye roll is hard.

Ryan: 1:11:22

Yeah, yeah, and I think it's warranted. I really do. And I think um it's not like you shouldn't arm yourself with with data and try and do some research on your own. You you should, but it's not like a DIY, like, you know, how to put up sheetrock properly. Like there's a lot more nuance to like animal anatomy and behavior, and and again, talking like like nutrition is the foundation of animal health. So you look at like, well, if you're not feeding them right and they don't have the right hormones, then you know this is gonna happen. Or it's like there's so many complex things and subtleties in diagnosing animal issues that I think using Google should just be done uh conscientiously. Right? Is that is that something that we shouldn't leave that out?

Michelle: 1:12:06

That's a good that's a very good point, and I'm glad you brought it up. And honestly, to be fair, um I'm a new mom, have an eight-week-old son, and I'm very comfortable taking care of livestock. I was a nanny in college, but I didn't deal with infants. Uh they were a little bit older, so I have definitely been a victim of Dr. Google myself and you know have looked a few things up. Um and so I understand that Google is a very easy resource for people to utilize, and I I certainly will eye roll clients as well when they say, Well, Google said, um, obviously in good humor. Um, but I do also try and encourage people to find other resources. So um, especially for like my small-scale clients or people that are new to dairy goats, I really love the the stories guide books. Um, so stories guide to to dairy goats, or um, they even have one for miniature livestock for our uh Nigerian dwarf people out there. Um but I would much prefer you have that book on hand to utilize as a resource first before you go to Google. Um, and every veterinarian has their own recommendations for resources as well, so please speak with yours for other ideas. I also really like websites that end in.edu. Um they're usually extension websites or university websites, so that's pretty reliable information. Um can be helpful as well, although generally those are nonprofit organizations, so um, depending on their agenda, your information may be a little bit skewed. Um it really depends on what what um who is operating that website. So I would say start with um recommendations from your veterinarian, um, and then dot edu websites are generally uh pretty helpful as well.

Ryan: 1:14:05

But yeah, I think that that's a wonderful recommendation, and and I would just say having done it in the past and having been a part of it like curiously through other people and got phone calls in the in the night and whatever, is like uh most of the time you look something up online, and it's probably true for new moms as well, uh, is it's going to take you toward toward fear.

Michelle: 1:14:27

Absolutely.

Ryan: 1:14:28

And toward panic. And I think that that's why like I personally avoid it. Like if I have some like health thing, I'm like, I'm not gonna look it up online because it's gonna scare the shit out of me. And I don't want to be scared. And so it's not productive being scared. So I think um not panicking as a producer when you look something up. You know, I had a customer, a client once, who had a their herd had goiters, so like, you know, under the chin, some extra like baggage there from just nutrition and being well fed, and uh, they were convinced it was CL. It's an easy one. And you know, and rightfully so, right? If you read the right article, it's gonna tell you like there's this abscess, you know, it can be on the jaw or it can move from you know under the ear, could be down in the throat, and uh and so they were convinced for like several days in full panic mode, not sleeping, and you know, and then I came out and visited, and uh I was like, that's not CL, that's that's a goiter. Or the same thing happened with the tooth abscess. And this guy was convinced his heart had CL for over a year. And I said, No, you gotta stop feeding dried whole kernel corn because they're your girls are breaking their teeth, and then the problem will go away. And it did. And so I uh that's why I recommend not doing it, is because it takes you to this place of fear and like panic that's unproductive and not healthy, and then uh also it again it intervenes with the orchestra performing like smoothly. So, anyway, I just thought that was worth mentioning and and congratulations on being the mom. That's very exciting.

Michelle: 1:15:58

It's been fun, yeah. Um, awesome. Well, this has been a really great conversation, Ryan. I'm really enjoyed it, and thank you so much for your insight. I think people are gonna get a lot out of this discussion.

Ryan: 1:16:09

Awesome. I enjoyed it as well. Bye, everybody.