Baa's and Bleat's - The AASRP Podcast
Baa's and Bleat's - The AASRP Podcast
Producer Spotlight: Linda Detwiler & her Suffolk sheep
This month we are testing out a new type of episode where we will sit down with a veterinarian and one of their exceptional producers to dig into how their relationship benefits the livestock they care for. Our first guests are Dr. Linda Detwiler and her veterinarian, Dr. Jon Higgins from New Jersey. Linda raises Suffolk sheep for breeding stock and is also a veterinarian working on the USDA APHIS scrapie program. She targets her breeding program to produce sheep that will perform well for owners who are new to sheep production as well as research groups who are studying scrapie management. Dr. Higgins highlights Linda's willingness to call for help early and her meticulous animal care records as two of the many reasons that she is such an exceptional producer to work with. Despite being a licensed veterinarian who works with sheep frequently in a regulatory capacity, Linda finds Dr. Higgins' expertise as a practitioner to be invaluable, especially his interest in staying up-to-date on the cutting edge treatment and preventative recommendations for her animals. She also cites her strict biosecurity practices and solid nutrition plan as keys to her success in over 20 years of raising Suffolk sheep.
Resources discussed in this episode:
American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners - Veterinarians and vet students join today!
https://aasrp.org/Main/Main/Membership/Join-AASRP.aspx?hkey=6878474f-d347-4a79-bdbe-5a1896781821
American Association of Bovine Practitioners - Veterinarians & vet students join today! https://www.aabp.org/dues/
AASRP Biosecurity toolkit: https://aasrp.org/Main/Main/Resources/AASRP-Biosecurity-Tool-Kit-Resources.aspx?hkey=63a00c1e-31c3-4b94-b5c4-8050b9e7b6dd
AABP Podcast - Have You Herd? https://www.buzzsprout.com/814177/
The American Sheep Industry Research Update Podcast with Dr. Robert VanSaun: https://soundcloud.com/user-637754734
If you or your organization would like to sponsor an episode of Baas and Bleats, please contact office@aasrp.org to learn more.
Hello out there. Thanks so much for joining us today on Baas and Bleats. This is Michelle Buckley. I'm your guest host for the May edition of the show. A couple days late. Sorry about that. We're giving Sarah Lowry some time to catch her breath in the midst of lambing and kidding season, but you can be sure that she'll be back soon with some more awesome and clinically relevant research content for all of you. Today we're going to change it up a little bit, and our episode will be a conversation with a producer and their veterinarian with a focus on how this relationship has allowed the producer to reach new heights in their animal care and the quality of their end product. So for today's guests, we've got Dr. John Higgins from Acorn Farm Vets, which serves producers in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. And Dr. Higgins has brought along Linda Detweiler, who is also another veterinarian actually, who works for USDA. And she also raises some pretty impressive Suffolk sheep. So welcome, John and Linda, and thank you both for joining us. I'd love to get a little bit more information about you both. So, John, can you get us started and tell us about yourself and your practice?
Jon:Sure, welcome. It's it's nice to be on the podcast. It's been so such a good resource for the association for everybody. I'm a ruminant farm animal veterinarian in New Jersey. I do a little bit of work in Pennsylvania. Grew up right here in central New Jersey, and we had sheep and some cows growing up. It wasn't a real farm per se, but I got interested in the reproductive sort of end of it as I got through undergrad and embryo transfer in cattle. And went to the University of Pennsylvania for my veterinary degree and kind of stayed at the back end of cows for a couple years after that, but always liked working with sheep and it expanded after I was in practice for a while and started working with more sheep, some more goats. And the practice has been going on. I've been out. I started practice solo when I got out of vet school. It's been it'll be 36 years later this month. But I think a real one of the things that really helped me besides ABP from the cattle side is SRP. And I still remember how that was a real boost to I've told the farmers it's like having 900 other practitioners that know more than you do. So it's helped me a lot, and it's been a great resource to have to this day going on. So I really enjoy it and enjoy all the all the things it has to offer.
Michelle:Awesome. Dr. Higgins, we've really we're really grateful to have you currently running the membership committee of AASRP. So that 900 membership number must be spot on, you would know.
Jon:Well, that's an old old figure I throw out. I think it's a bit more than that, and hopefully we're going to be moving that up. That's the point of the point of that, is get more people interested, sheep goats, uh, camelets, and servants.
Michelle:Absolutely. Excellent. Well, you've been giving us some great leadership there. And Dr. Higgins does a lot of really awesome things for the vet world and his community in in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. He's an amazing role model for so many of us, giving back what he got out of the organization early on. And he's also just a really fun guy to chat with. So if you're on social media, he posts some really great veterinary content and you can go ahead. So yeah, check that out. He's he's got a lot going on. He seems to always be busy and always has a smile on his face and a cool story to tell. So we're really glad to hear Dr. Higgins.
Jon:Oh, well, that's that's been a been a nice two-way street on Instagram with the Sheep Doc page and then also the Cow Doc, just all the veterinary colleagues and students I've met. In fact, two associates I've had that worked with me came through that that channel. So it's been good learning all around and fun.
Michelle:Wow. That's really cool. I did not know that.
Jon:Yeah.
Michelle:Very cool. All right. Well, that's the veterinarian half of today's dynamic duo. And now I'd really like to learn more about the producer. Linda, could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your flock?
Linda:Sure. So I'm um Linda Deweiler, and like you said, I'm thank you very much for having me on, by the way. I'm also a veterinarian, but I I did start in practice when I graduated from Ohio State, but just a little bit of large animal, and then went to work for USDA, the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, shortly after that. And but I'm not in this podcast representing USDA. I'm representing myself and my flock as a producer, like you said. So I have a approximately 20U purebred Suffolk flock in central New Jersey. And I mostly sell for replacements or people that just, you know, want to start with sheep and on occasion some breeding rams. I grew up actually on a slang term garbage feeding swine operation in central Jersey. So I'm a Jersey born and bred girl, and then but was a dairy science major in undergrad, and like I said, went to Ohio State. So I got interested in sheep because I worked on the scrapie program. And ironically, back in the late 80s and 1990s, when we were trying to first start a different version of the eradication program, the Suffolk breed and the hemp breed had most of the cases. So I worked a lot with uh those associations and producers, and and that's what I have now. So it's it's quite an interesting uh tale. But my flock is actually one I just really liked. I I spent some time in Wyoming with a large operation just to learn more about sheep since I grew up with hogs, and I spent during lambing, so it was really intense, and the producers out there were really patient with me, and I spent about a month there learning about the sheep operation. And so I took a lot of what I learned out there, you know, for my operation. My other part of my operation is not only for the sheep, but I also with uh scrapie, there's a like a resistance. The pre and protein gene has a resistance thing, but my sheep, I try to breed for the susceptible, and I know that sounds interesting, uh sounds odd, right? That most people breed for the resistant, but I do have a closed flock. I closed my U flock probably over 20 years ago after I bought it from the the this producer that we had been working with for research, and I supplied over the years many secretions, excretions to different research facilities. And because I have the susceptible, there they can do different research on there. So that's why I maintained the susceptible genetics for the suffix.
Michelle:Wow, that's really cool, Dr. Dettleweiler. When John suggested you for this show, he just said, She's an amazing producer, and he didn't really tell me anything else. So that's that's really awesome. And I'm really excited to have you here today and to get to learn more about what you're doing over there with your sheep and and how you manage them so meticulously. Because that that takes a lot of work to understand the genetics behind that and to continuously, you know, get everybody tested, all of your all of your new lambs, and and keep track of everybody's genetic status. So I think this is going to be a fun episode.
Linda:And I just want to say, I you said impressive. I wouldn't call my flock impressive, it's just a basic thing. I I do try production-wise, though. I've learned a lot from different people that have been really good about helping we with just production traits. So I do not only am I looking with the scrapie part of it, right, on the genetics, but I do try to look at production traits and always improve production-wise.
Michelle:That's really cool. Okay, I can't wait to dig in more on that. So to dive in, I think it's important to explore, explain a little bit more about how this episode came to be. Originally, it was an email from me to John saying, what if we mixed up the research episodes with some interviews with exceptional producers and veterinarians and just see if we can get some real-world examples of how to build a productive VCPR and how that can benefit producers? And I didn't really know what exceptional would mean. And like I said, John didn't really tell me, he just said, we have to talk to Linda. And that was the first comment that came out. So, John, I know that Linda is not going to tell us exactly what makes her exceptional, but could you give us some insight into why Linda was the first person to pop into your head? And that's I'm sure I know you have a lot of amazing clients. It sounds like they're all unicorns based on our conversations and your social media, but I think it just speaks to the fact that there's something extra special about what Linda's got going on.
Jon:So Yeah, I'm I'm fortunate to work with a lot of, you know, in the great farming state of New Jersey of ruminant uh owners. But and but I think really what I see with her flock, and I'll I'll add the the accolades to it, when I drive in the driveway there, I see the sheep, I say this is an impressive flock. And it's just the attention to detail. The you know, when you talk about the the breeding plans, yes, Linda's breeding for performance and all the things you would do in a typical flock, but then there's that whole other side related to the science of scrapie and done so much work with with that aspect of it, which is a real benefit to sheep breeders in all breeds, particularly now as we approach the essentially eradication, hopefully, of uh scrapie. So all that work's being done is really impressed upon me. And I've always liked working with Linda. I grew up with Suffolk, too, so I'm a little biased. It's always nice coming in and seeing a driveway and seeing a flock of those sheep there. And when I go in there, I know that I'm probably going to be challenged a little bit because she does a lot of what she needs to do, but she also knows when to call a veterinarian, and that's how we've worked out together. Just for the point of as an example, like distos. I think I've been down there for a few, Linda, and it's like this is what I'd like all clients to do is like know when to call for help. And and I I do the same thing, it's in terms of like changing your approach, and it's better than waiting hours and hours. So it's just a pleasure all around to go there and see good sheep, see the progress in the in the flock over the years, too, and knowing I can help out.
Michelle:That's awesome. That's really cool. So, Linda, can you give us a little bit more about what your goals are production-wise?
Linda:Yeah, again, I I guess I don't look at my flock as really impressive. It's sure not a show flock or or whatnot. I try to just better it, and I I have had here that people now are interested again, maybe in some of the larger meat breeds, you know, that want to start. And that's what I try to do is if the people want to start and buy some from me, because we really got down, I I think Dr. Higgins would say, you know, the number of Suffolk flocks has really dropped, right? And so by maintaining it, and so I like to get them with really sound, and depending on what they're gonna do, if they're gonna go in for the market, right? So to have the a good carcass with a good long length of loin, a good solid uh hind quarter, um, but also the the maternal thing too. I try to really look at maternal traits and especially when people are just starting out and they want to start lambing, right? You want to start them off with good use, you know, that are have good mothering instincts and are going to raise the lambs with minimal difficulty. So I I think that's what I really strive for in trying to keep improving and and and maintaining. And I try to also, people that want to buy, I look what they're after, and I try and match the animal with what they would like out of the sheep. So again, I again I don't look at that as impressive. I just looked at it, and I I do have I keep you know, birth weights, weaning weights, etc. Again, trying to build and also number of lambs this year. I'm proud I'm over a 200% lamb crop. So and yeah, wow, I yeah that's awesome. I I had a really good year this year and I'm done, so I can knock on wood, right? Yeah, there you go.
Jon:Well, I think that's the thing that makes a point. Uh I'm sorry, Michelle. It's about having a product that sheep, I should say, that are gonna work for people. I think all the anybody associated with the Suffolk breed over the last 20 years knows that there's been some extremes in it. And I think what Linda, Dr. Deppweiler, has is sheep that work for people. And that's important. That maternal base is really important. I recognize that. I mean, if you've got a a big, really good-looking, showy you that has a bad odor or has difficulty in in delivery, that's not productive. And so that is the impressive aspect I see in not only her flock, but other flocks or herds that for that matter, that are producing something that fits the owner, and that's the key thing. She gets something that fits, knows what her customers want and fits that to them so that they have success also. And that's the point of a good breeding operation.
Michelle:Yeah, it definitely sounds like you know your clientele and you know your audience, and you're working really hard to serve them.
unknown:Yeah.
Michelle:And and better the breed too.
Linda:And we I sell to again people that are just getting started. So I try to also give them something that they could work with and also try and educate them and prepare them for having sheep, especially when they're gonna be lambing for the first time. So I think that's also important uh that that education that's going in there, you know, with the different husbandry practices, you know, and biosecurity. I'm really big on biosecurity as well. That's awesome.
Michelle:I hope you point your appliance to the AASRP biosecurity toolkit that we have available on our website. That's a great kind of jumping off point to to help people get familiar with it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it it sounds like you know a lot about your flock, Linda. And I know you know 20 animals might not seem like that many, but 20 is a decent number to be intimately familiar with, and keeping track of everyone's records in your brain can be tricky sometimes. So, can you give us some insight into how you keep track of production metrics, what metrics you're keeping track of besides lambing rate, um, and how you keep all of that straight so that you are continuously selecting for the best.
Linda:So I I'm a big one for records. And I, you know, at 20, you're right. It it to me it doesn't seem like a lot, but I think, oh, I would remember this or whatnot. But I I don't, I don't remember things. So tagging, I have a tagging system. I have two types of ear tags, one when they're lambs, when I first, you know, dock them just at 48 hours with the lamb tag, which is the same number that matches my official ID. And I put the official ID on at weaning, which is about 60 to 90 days. But everything is, I'm not real high-tech like with RFID or anything yet, but I have everything on a spreadsheet in the computer. And I may I look at all the records in there, like I said, the the birth weights and you know, uh triplets, you know, if they're twins, triplets, et cetera. And then the weaning weights, I keep track of any of the, you know, CDT, the vaccinations on there, everybody's record, any kind of deworming, any kind of treatment on there. And it's amazing what I think I remember, but I don't until I go back to look at the records, right? And I know that probably helps Dr. Higgins, or hopefully it does, because sometimes there's different things if I call him and and he's invaluable. I I think we do have a good working relationship. I mean, as busy as he is, you know, if I text him, if there's something I haven't seen before, or I just need some advice, or sometimes just somebody to say, okay, here's the deal, like backup or you know, whatever. And hopefully that helps him by having you know good records. I also, even though I have a small flock, I use uh a harness with a crayon, and I'm meticulous. I change that crayon every 14 days to make sure I get the breeding dates. And so when it comes time to lambing, I am really have to me, it really works for me, and I'm really good for knowing the approximate lambing date, you know, as much as that. So I'm really good. And that helps sometimes, you know, if you have to induce or whatnot. So I know I discuss those type of things with Dr. Higgins.
Jon:Oh, absolutely. With that discussion about just induction, I mean, some flocks you go to, it's like, well, they the ram was out there, who knows? And this isn't the case with her with her with Dr. Detweiler's flock at all. So that helps me make better decisions medically to work with her to do the best thing for the flock.
Michelle:Absolutely. So, and then Linda John tells us that you're really good about asking for help in a timely manner. And some of that comes from your training, right? But we're talking to Linda Detweiler today, not Dr. Detweiler, and it's it's important to take off your doctor cap sometimes, especially when you're working on your own animals. Um, and I think that speaks to the value of having a veterinarian, even when you are a veterinarian, just getting that outside perspective because it's hard to put on your doctor cap for your own animals, I think, because you see them every day and it's hard to notice changes, and it's it's just a different way of thinking about them, being a producer versus a veterinarian. So I I think a lot of you know John's praise for how what a great job you do with your interventions comes a little bit from how John has coached you to be prepared for those situations. So, as a veterinarian, what has he done to help you as the producer know when you can go ahead and give it a try on your own? And when do we need to take a time out and and call some more expertise?
Linda:Yeah, I I think it's hard for me to separate that because of you know it the training, right, on there. But I think if I if I touch base with him or I text him, he's really great, send a picture, right? That's what we do a lot. Here, take a picture, send him a picture, okay? And and then we might discuss it. And then if it's something that it's like, okay, I've been doing this for there, he'll might say, here, try this, and if it doesn't work, okay, it's time for him to, you know, to to come down or you know, and and and help out or or whatnot. I the other thing I use, Dr. Higgins, on occasion, I don't I don't know if he remembers this case, but we had one where the lamb was big and it it it ruptured the uterus. And do you remember that one you put the drain in on there? And um that you was kind of young, and we knew she wouldn't breed already, but again, I get this attachment to him. So you're right. I I sometimes get the attachment, right? We I the one thing about being a vet, sometimes you can go too far, right? You can carry it on. So I had her hooked up to an IV and she didn't eat, and I I did tuber, I got the fluids in her, whatnot. She was coming about a week not eating, right? And I remember telling Dr. Higgins, I'm like, okay, this is just me, right? I I'm too close to it. So this is me, the producer, saying, I need some professional advice on what to do. And he he was really good. Sean, I don't know if you remember this, but you're like, Well, she's still getting up, she's still she was bright and alert, actually, you know, just keeping her doctorate on there. And on day like eight, I remember going to the barn and there she was munching on hay. Yeah, now that you, it seems funny, like, why would you go to that, right? And she healed up okay. She's now on an estate. She she went to this beautiful estate as somebody that just wanted a pretty suffoc to look at.
Jon:Yep.
Linda:Now I wouldn't recommend that for other producers, but you know, that's that's yeah.
Jon:In this case, it was appropriate. I mean when you have a sheep that's trying, and sometimes you're exactly right, Linda. It's the out just the outside view. I mean, I've got to do that with my own animals too, or if I get involved with someone with a with an equine sort of thing, I was like, I'm quick to call for help because I know it's not it's not my depth. And not yours. I'm not reflecting that to you. Um, but that was the interesting case, and I'm glad we were able to I was able to chip in on that.
Linda:Yeah, yeah, no, that he did all the surgery and all the the real difficult stuff and and that kind of stuff. And yeah. So and again, that's probably not a practical thing for for most everybody, you know, anybody else, you know, to to put that much effort in. But I don't know. I think for some call it gets hard.
Jon:We have. Obviously we have a lot of commercial people uh in the country, but we've got a lot of people that would be doing exactly that. Um and so I think that was that was relevant in that case and I'm glad she's got a a good spot to be at now.
Michelle:Yeah. I I think that speaks to the intricacies of the relationship between a veterinarian and a producer or what they can be and how beneficial they can be. Because something I always tell my students is your clients know their animals best. So if they think something is off, even if they can't explain it to you. Like I used to tell my clients if they look at you funny, I want a phone call or a text message. Like if you know there's something off even if you can't describe it, let me know, clue me in. And then working with your veterinarian and going back and forth and the wonders of technology today where you can get a text or a picture or a video on your phone and say, hmm can you can you tell me more about this thing that I'm seeing or something like that. I mean it it really just facilitates that relationship even more to the betterment of the animal's health and welfare and hopefully also for the producers as well welfare, mental well-being and at the at the end of the day they're bottom line too. So thank you for sharing that story Linda. That was perfect.
Jon:I think it is that picture is a thousand words. And having started out in the era of drive up pay phones and no cell phones, I very much appreciate it. And it you'd any veterinarian would rather get the maybe extra text or video or two rather than saying oh gosh I wish I'd call you daarlier.
Michelle:You know agreed. Agreed. Yeah it's always better to call too soon than too late.
Jon:Yep very much.
Michelle:So we've kind of touched on this a little bit throughout the conversation but I I really want to dig into it a little bit more Linda you are a licensed veterinarian although you work in regulatory medicine but obviously your flock in particular ties in really tightly with the work that you do at USTA but you're still certainly capable and legally within your rights to write prescriptions, diagnose diseases, perform surgeries, all the veterinarian So why is it so important to you to work with a practitioner instead of just trying to manage flock health on your own?
Linda:Yeah so one thing I get from Dr. Higgins too is all the latest like all the different things and I don't really have time because you know my job takes up quite a bit of time and whatnot, but he's really good about all the okay this is the latest you know treatment this is the latest antibiotic this is a you know the deworming strategies and whatnot. Now some of that I can look up but I mean it it's really good to have somebody to rely on and and be that and he does it all the time. See he he's out there right every day looking at different animals and knowing all that stuff which I just don't do. I mean all the routine stuff and my routine flock type of things like the preventative vaccines and the you know deworming and the using of Famacha et cetera I mean that I do as a producer but like when it comes to something that I haven't encountered or or some kind of new he'd say oh you might want to try this and that's the real value that I get from Dr. Higgins you know the tremendous I can't replace and he's so patient too he's really patient.
Michelle:He is he is and I I think I wonder if you've noticed this Linda but I think there's a lot to be said for vets deal with all the bad stuff right like we get the concentration of bad things and then producers are like it's probably gonna be fine I see this all the time and it's fine. But like when there's something bad going on the vets probably already dealt with it a handful of times and might have a little bit more experience right yeah yeah yeah so yeah use our trauma our work trauma of seeing all the bad stuff to your advantage as a producer. What do you think John?
Jon:Yeah I I I agree with that I've always liked learning new things. You know the associations have made that difference and keeping up with the latest and I've heard from clients over the years it's like well you really you know keep up with the new things and so that's that's always been a compliment that kept me doing it and probably also here being stuck in New Jersey traffic often enough I get all the time in the world to listen to the webinars, the podcast and the SRP posts, listener posts. So but it's it's it's what I'm interested in. And it's it's great to learn from that and be able to pass it on to people and help them out and see something new that can do that. I mean there's there's many different you know I could list a lot of different examples of that of new things in sheep or goat or cattle medicine. And your point about we do see all the problems is true. There's a large dairy in South Jersey I go to and I'll be there all afternoon and and there are hospital pens right behind the rail and just getting to see normal calvings is a real treat because you know I'm used to the the breeches the headbacks the the MSM and it's all that fun so but you're right producers see it all the time. But it's good when they know when to call and and that's always happy to help.
Linda:One thing I'll put in from a producer standpoint which I I so when I was in practice one of the things that I guess learned and hopefully I'm a good client right that when people don't have their animals caught up right and there his time is so valuable right and and sometimes John's not always available. So I've had other we have horses too but I'm I'm like I never touch our own horses even I mean we have two donkeys I'll vaccinate them and that kind of stuff but that's about it right so that's just not my comfort zone. But I do believe when when somebody's gonna come out here those animals can be caught up tied up already for them and hopefully I'm a good client as far as that is also concerned because I think that's so helpful because I remember waiting or things or chasing things out in the pasture and you know that just is it just eats your time up.
Jon:That's another that's the other impressive part Linda's always prepared has the animals in and I've never had to use my favorite phrase which is I'm a reasonably priced veterinarian but I'm a darn expensive cowboy.
Michelle:Yeah yeah using the kind of word yeah that's bring giving me flashbacks to my days in practice as well spend you know being the one where the client couldn't catch their animal or they didn't have the facilities. So yeah that's a great point Linda. And I think that also there's an onus on the veterinarian when it comes to that you know our schedules get crazy all the time especially when you're talking about doing farm calls and you know things will take longer than you expect or you might have a great day and something takes less time. So that communication with the client again technology is a beautiful thing. Send them a text hey I'm on my way hey I'm running late I'll be there in 20 minutes so that the client can you know stop what they're doing, go outside, catch their animal and have it ready for you. I think that's a two-way street but yeah absolutely having having animals caught and ready to go caught means different things to different people but I mean like on a halter in the barn ready to go not in the one acre pasture instead of the 20 acre pasture. So good job Linda sounds like you are an excellent client.
Linda:Well I I try to be the other thing I try to do too and this is from a flock management is and maybe that's also because of what I do but really prevent like the in infectious disease introduction etc so you know good vaccination program keeping the closed like I've closed my UFLC I think it's been well since I purchased it. So over 20 years, right? About 20 years now that I've owned the flock. And then just buying a RAM you know like every four to five years but having it isolated you know for two to three weeks prior to introducing it I test too I I test for OPP I test it for CL. So I test for a number of different diseases and so when I buy one I'll I'll run tests on the RAM that I buy and then isolate it and retest it and and introduce it. And just from a production standpoint that's really helped me to do that preventive so I don't have to deal with some of these diseases that are like really chronic problems. So I that hopefully that's also helpful just for the overall health of my flock.
Jon:That's it's wonderfully helpful and it's it's great having when there's such a good example of biosecurity. I mean we all learned it in vet school what to do but when you see that on a regular basis it's good to emphasize that to other people I mean my my protocol is new boots and coveralls at the end of every driveway. And so that's you know when you see someone doing it every day as they should that's the one to pass along to other people and you always tell people most disease comes in the driveway on a trailer. And this is a case where you know someone's really making an effort that has made a difference in their flock not to have those things happen.
Linda:Preventative and I I would thank you Dr. Higgins because I think that's important for everybody's practicing on their you know the biosecurity and and we're the professionals right or that you know the professionals are the ones that go on from farm to farm. And for like from a producer standpoint for somebody that really puts a lot of effort into biosecurity and keeping out those infection ab the abortive diseases the contagious diseases that's what I'd like to see in the practitioners that come on my farm just like John said you know disinfection boots clean coveralls because I'm putting that effort in so please you're the you know professional please do the same.
Jon:Yep. We've got to protect your flock and others.
Michelle:Yep absolutely and also as a producer I think what I've seen anyway is a lot of folks love to go to their friends' farms and help take care of their animals. And that could be a really big biosecurity risk too especially if we're not changing clothes if you you know come straight home to do your own chores after you go and help your friends with their chores if they're you know recovering from surgery or on vacation or something you you could be carrying something from their flock and bringing it right into the into yours. So that's another aspect that I've noticed that I think producers tend to overlook as well.
Linda:Yeah absolutely and it takes a little bit of time and effort but I think in the long run I try to the prevention is is really important and over in the long run it will save you money and it will save you a lot of headaches as well.
Jon:Yep.
Michelle:Absolutely absolutely so John as I've mentioned and we've noticed from our conversation with Linda you have a lot of great clients and you're great at training them and what are some of the specific things that your wonderful clients do that allow you to provide them with the pinnacle of veterinary care we've touched on a couple things like keeping good records and sharing them with you and utilizing good biosecurity protocols. But is there anything that you've noticed that really help your top producers you know keep their animals in the peak of health?
Jon:Well I think there's two strata I I'll often when I'm going to a new client I'll say that I'm here to and I'm here to do things to for you to learn things so that you get to see the veterinarian that's true the training and because I've had people comment to me in the past they said the other and no slam on anybody but the other veterinarian comes they just they treat them and they leave and they don't really explain why they're doing it. So I've always liked the education and teaching part of practice and getting people to do what they can right away. And a lot of it may come from early in practice and still I travel a bit I mean I used to do a lot more doing ET work so I wasn't always immediately available and so having people being able to do the first step was helpful. Now on the established really exceptional producers I think what they do is they take a team approach to it and I see this you know not just in sheep but in dairy also they're always innovating they're they're always collaborating and but there's always a team approach whether it's nutritionist or the hoof trimmer you know on the dairy side but it could be the show team it could be the the grazing advisor and it's always that where they're looking for an elevation of their operation and their animals welfare and productivity and being able to be part of that team is really helpful and seeing how you fit in and how you can help. And no finger pointing it's you know sometimes you'll you'll get you know say like well that hoof trimmer there did this or that veterinarian did that and we don't want that. The really good practitioner or producers excuse me are they challenge you and that's what I like because you get the opportunity to help them out move up forward in a in a more positive way all around it's it's it's really a nice challenge in practice. But I'll also add this these kind of producers are the ones I always bring fourth fourth year extern students to see and I'll tell them you will learn equally here as you do from veterinarian and there there are things that there's and that's been the truth for me. I mean I've been in practice nearly 36 years I've had some really great veterinary mentors all those on AASRP included but the terrific producers have given me loads of knowledge to be a better livestock vet. I mean I had one tunis producer Carmen I don't know if you remember her Linda Carmen Griffin tunis producer about 30 years ago and you know I grew up with sheep but this she was just a wonderful producer and as a you know one or two years out of school vet I learned a lot about sheep that went beyond the medical you know exact things that that we were trained in. And that added and helped me I I hope be a better sheep veterinarian and veterinarian all around.
Linda:Yeah I agree. I I think you hit on something too Dr. Higgins about the the nutrition and that from a producer I'd like to emphasize that really is important and I think people sometimes don't put enough producers might not put enough emphasis on that right if they're looking for um when I sell a sheep and I've I've learned this over the years of what to educate my buyers for right so you know I do basic like biosecurity things about you know deworming what to look for especially you know what how to monitor the sheep but I really have emphasized especially with Suffolks right they're a big breed and they're a fast growing breed and you have to feed them right if they want the growth right so it so they're not disappointed. And also when they're lambing you have to feed that you right if you're twins or triplets you have to feed them I you know early on I had somebody that you had triplets but they were feeding like weeds and they were wondering why they were weak and the you was weak. And so now so I've learned as a producer on there when I sell I try to provide information but now I really stress the new nutrition and one uh a gentleman I bought my breeding rams from a couple years was a really well-known Suffolk producer in Ohio and he said he tells his buyers you have to feed those like especially a ram if I you buy a ram lamb you have to feed them like a growing teenage boy that's I I use that right that that's what you got to do you got to feed them like a growing if they want a really good you know a ram uh a ram lamb to grow well and be a good breeding buck and and I so I use that term now a lot when I sell so that's really great insight and I would love to give a shout out to the American Sheep Industry podcast that actually just released an episode I guess it was the end of March now on mineral supplementation in sheep with Robert Banson that was mind-blowingly insightful so great for producers and veterinarians and and it really touches on a lot of the core tenets of good nutrition all around for for sheep and goats so I would really encourage folks to check that out and I will link it in the show notes as well.
Jon:Yeah his his work Dr. Mungini's work with him have been fantastic and I I always remember an expression I think it's from Lisa Williamson down in Georgia says you can you can feed your way out of a worm problem you can't deworm your way out of a feed problem and it's very true.
Linda:You said that last summer and I need to remember that because that I have to pass on to some of my buyers too but I did stress that you brought that up and I and I thought oh yeah that's probably right because I really am good I'm I don't ever cut down for the lambs because I really think that's a true statement as well.
Jon:That teenage boy thing's real good and that's right.
Michelle:Yeah yeah yeah absolutely absolutely well gosh John and Linda this has been such a treat of a conversation for me personally I've learned so much and I think our listeners are going to get a lot of out of it too whether they're practitioners or producers or students or just people who like small revenants.
Linda:So are there any other insights that you'd like to share with folks before I let you go enjoy the rest of your weekends well I I think something we touched on but there's two things one as a producer so even veterinarians that own especially sheep I I I always tell I correct or I contradict people that say sheep die easily right I don't think that's correct. Okay I think it's they're pretty stoic right and it you need to as a producer look for those early signs right if they're hesitating to come up and that's to me to look for something that might be wrong early on because I think by the time they really show you what's wrong now you're you're behind the curve. So even that's happened to me over the years I you know maybe was in a hurry and I didn't you know maybe treat something or look at something right away and I've learned it the first time I see something act and then the same thing is calling it calling the veterinarian calling your practitioner for help and and don't wait too long because that's the worst thing it puts them behind you know and then everybody's frustrated. So I I think you know observing taking action early you know looking to see what's there and calling you know for help early that's my recommendation.
Jon:Yeah I I I'd want to echo that my very first day as a pre vet student riding with a local practice he says John you got to remember the four S's six sheep seldom survive and you know sheep Lynn is exactly right they're stoic they're prey animals they're not going to show you but the the actually the true statement is sheep will tell you just what's wrong if you know how to listen. And if you can do that you're gonna help them get to them early keep an eye on your flock I mean I see like with with our flock at home if in the summertime if that sheep that always comes in third or fourth is all of a sudden 15th or 16th there's something wrong. They like their routine like all ruminants. And so and I know sheep people like to do this and that about sheep wanting to die but it's it's not true. They are tough I have seen some really tough animals use and rams and they've got that in them. You just know how to listen.
Michelle:Yeah agreed yeah wonderful that is such great insight and uh Linda now I understand exactly why John thought that you should be our initial guest for this part of the series so thank you so much for sharing all of your insights and your wisdom with us and John it's always a treat thank you for all of your wonderful contributions to this conversation as well. I hope that I get to see you both at the AASRP annual meeting this year. Or that maybe our paths cross sometime when I get to visit the East Coast. I really appreciate yes I gotta get back out there. But it's been such a pleasure and thank you both for joining us today on Boz and Bleaks.
