Baa's and Bleat's - The AASRP Podcast
Baa's and Bleat's - The AASRP Podcast
Range Sheep and Guardian Dogs with Dr. Jake Thorne
Join us for a discussion about genetic evaluations, parasite management, and livestock guardian dogs with Dr. Jake Thorne, Assistant Professor and Extension Sheep and Goat Specialist at the Texas A&M AgriLife Research Station in San Angelo, TX.
In this episode, Dr. Thorne discusses methods for genetic evaluation of sheep with a special focus on resistance to Barber Pole Worm. He also discusses his vision for how extension agents and veterinarians can work together to better serve small ruminant producers in the United States. Finally, Dr. Thorne digs into some excellent livestock guardian dog training research that is taking place to give us some insights on when and how to introduce these dogs to our livestock.
More information about Dr. Thorne's work can be found here: https://sanangelo.tamu.edu/people/jacob-thorne/
Dr. Thorne is also the host of the American Sheep Industry's Research Update Podcast. We highly recommend giving him a listen at https://www.sheepusa.org/research-podcast
If your company or organization would like to sponsor an episode or if you have questions about today's show, please email Office@AASRP.org
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Baas and Bleats. Today we'll be talking to Dr. Jake Thorne. He's an assistant professor and extension keeping goat specialist at Texas AM. Welcome, Dr. Thorne.
Jake:Yeah, thank you.
Sarah:So, Dr. Thorne is not a veterinarian, but he knows so much about small ruminants. We just have absolutely more to talk to you about today than we probably have time for. I'm super excited about all he has to talk to us about. We don't get a lot of people that have the title sheep and goat specialist really anywhere. So it's super exciting for us. Can you give us a little bit of background about where you went to school and where you're from and all of that?
Jake:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me on the program. It's a it is a small network of sheep and goat extension specialists, but I appreciate the having the opportunity to talk with you. So I'm originally from California. I grew up on a on a sheep ranch actually in Northern California and kind of developed a passion. And that led me to an animal science uh degree through Texas AM, a bachelor's and a master's at AM. And then eventually I landed over here in San Angelo, which is where I'm at now. And that's about five hours west of college station. So it's on the western side of Texas. And the reason why I kind of came over here is because this region of Texas is a very uh super super very popular in this area, and it's historic in this in this area. And so there's a lot of a lot of key stuff that's going on, including key research. And so I'm at the Research and Extension Center that's based in San Angelo. I'd still work through the the Texas AM system, and we do a variety of of sheep and goat research here. Here in as a farm manager type role, and then eventually in 2019 went back and got a PhD, and my PhD is through the University of Idaho. So I worked with Dr. Brenda Murdoch, who's at the University of Idaho, mainly focusing on molecular genetics in feet and small remnants specifically. And so some of my dissertation research really focused on using using tools that explore uh the genome of or try to learn about and currently I am obviously the extension specialist, and so I I do education, industry education on a variety of small ruminant topics. So anything from parasites and genetics to nutrition, general husbandry, management, etc. But I always kind of gravitate towards talking about something that I find very interesting, and it's certainly a really important health topic.
Sarah:Yeah, we're so excited to talk to you. And before we started, we were talking about how I live in the frozen tundra, and so parasites are a completely different game up here compared to you guys down in the south. So we'll try to we'll try to balance our parasite talk, but we can all, you know, choose wisely in our breeding for sure. Um we had kind of talked about topics to hit because I know you're basically, you know, like an educator. And actually the first thing that I wouldn't mind talking about is just kind of we were talking about how I feel like the veterinarians don't really use extension agents to the full extent that they could to have a relationship between veterinarians, our clients, and the extension agent. And that is very state and area dependent. If somebody from New York is listening and you're an extension agent, and because I was saying I don't ever interact with extension agents, I know I have some that like will advise my clients on like pasture management and stuff like that, but I don't ever interact with them. Um, and I don't, I don't know any that do like health management stuff. We have state vets that do it, but maybe we could just talk a little bit about like what that relationship could look like and how like what am I missing out on? Like, what could I be doing better for my clients if I was like including someone like you in the conversation?
Jake:Yeah. Extension does have a tendency to kind of look different depending on what region of the country you're from. You and I were were talking before we even recorded, and and we're both not from the the areas that we're in right now. And even back, you know, back home, extension was different than the way that I know it now. A variety of ag industry, but uh work with farmers and ranchers and agreers to help them in a in a variety of ways. And so what comes out of that is use really strong relationships with those people, kind of the boots on the ground people in agriculture in their town. So I think there's a huge opportunity for extension and veterinarians to work together to, if nothing else, create create those connections between practitioners and clients. And really help, you know, I I believe Extension can help veterinarians again kind of get their foot in the door and say, you know, maybe explain to both both parties what what's going on, what is important to help both sides, you know, provide a better service if they can. Maybe explain to veterinarians what is going on in that region amongst other producers. So if there's a health health concern, it's not just what's happening in this flock, but hey, by the way, I've got five other producers within a five mile radius that are having animals with the same symptoms. Well, that I mean, that's very important information to the veterinarian, obviously, about something that might be I don't know. I to me it's most that that extension can tell in in that regard.
Sarah:And I think that should be a two-way relationship, right? Like we should be the ones diagnosing that. Like if you're like, you know, I diagnose this on this farm, and you're like, we're seeing these symptoms on these five other farms. Maybe they have that, you know, like cast valley fever has been a new thing in the last few years. We've seen up here. And so, like, talking to other veterinarians and other producers, I'm big in 4-A. So that kind of gives me like, you know, a broader network. Like, just as an example, you know, like I definitely think like a two-in-communication first. And like I said, like up here, I know extension agents do a lot with like the crops and stuff. And I just like that's not on my radar. So, you know, if I had an extension agent being like the hay sucks this year, like you're gonna have to eat apples, or like, you know, you need to talk to your clients about changing their minerals or like whatever. You know what I mean? Like, and tell me if I'm wrong, like you don't charge producers, right? Like the state pays you. And so, you know, there are some things that people just can't afford to pay us for that, you know, maybe you know, talking to an extension agent would be a better route for them just financially.
Jake:Yeah, absolutely. And also follow-up. I mean, well, that's one of the things. If if a veterinarian goes and and works with a client and and maybe there's some treatment or some health that's you know, something that's that's applied at that point, maybe loop extension agents in there and say, Hey, can you touch base back with Mr. Smith in a week and and see, you know, kind of help work with him and say, is there an improvement in our flock, or is there an improvement in in the health aspect of some kind, and just report that back to you? That does that that means that you, the veterinarian, don't have to make necessarily a second call or a second trip out somewhere, but it provides somewhat of a uh you know professional opinion on the benefit of that might be going on. Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah:For sure, for sure. Okay, so I'm gonna encourage everybody to form relationships with their local. Probably not all of us are lucky enough to have a sheep and goat specialist, except in Asia in our area, but especially not my area. Like we have the I have four goats in the backyard, kind of sheep and goats.
Jake:There's no big extension, I will just one comment. I mean, extension is it comes through the land grant university system. And so where whatever state you're in, you know, generally those people are employed by the land grant. And and so uh again, that might be the first place to look.
Sarah:Yeah, and we've talked about the land grant universities on this podcast before. So every state has one. Ours is Cornell, so like even like our fairground where the fair is on the fairgrounds is Cornell Cooperative Extension. And so, you know, there's obviously extension agents there. So it's Davis in California, it's Madison in Wisconsin, it's Iowa State in Iowa. Yeah, that's all I know.
Jake:That's what I went for.
Sarah:Texas, yeah. So think about where all the farm kids go to school. That's probably okay. So why don't we just roll a little bit? Let's just briefly talk about your kind of experience with the breeding of the sheep for parasite resistance, or at least realizing that there are certain breeds that are more resistant. Yeah. So can we just like jump in? I mean, obviously, we don't need your whole like methods and materials and everything, but like the brief takeaway and like what you tell people, how you advise people when they're buying a flock or something like that.
Jake:Right. So, you know, yeah, parasite resistance is a very umbrella term, right? Uh, as as we all know. And and I guess maybe uh, you know, when we talk about parasites and the most problematic parasites in in small man, we tend to focus on homacus contortus or or barber's pull work. It seems to be the gastrointestinal nematode that gives sheep and goats the most issues, and and that's probably true globally, not just in the United States or in the Southeast. It's extremely prolific. There's high generational turnover in in barber's pole, and what that leads to is tends to be ancalmented resistance and pockets of ancillamente resistance, and and so thinking about preventative strategies is really important. One of those preventative strategies is collecting animals for improved natural resistance. And so natural resistance is immune-based for the most part, and there's a there's a variety of responses that sheep or goats can have when Homoccus concordus shows up in their GI system. And breeds that are from more equatorial regions or Caribbean regions tend to have more natural resistance, and that makes sense. They've adapted for however many hundreds of years in basically a 24-7, 365 parasite rate. And then our more nor more northern breeds, or at least breeds from outside those regions, tend to not quite the same levels of and so what you know, basically the kind of synopsis of of the research that I did through my PhD and shortly after was you know, looking at what what is the response of some of the more susceptible breeds. And when I say that, and they they fit well, except when it comes to parasites. And what ends up happening is they tend to respond to parasites the same way that they would respond to a virus or a bacteria. And you know, prolonged inflammation uh in that mucosal lining of the abomasum, which is where that parasite interface is. And that's really just not a very effective immune response. And and what that leads to is those parasites become established and then the infection is on at that point. And those premium breeds are are much more adept at recognizing that this is not you know an infocellular parasite, this is this GI worm, it's something on its own, neutralizing it, and then actually a lot of times those parasites are uh and so how do we select for that? And and really, probably the best tool that's on the market right now that she producers can use is something that's pretty pretty simple and cost-effective, and that's and that's secret counting. And so looking through secal egg count, getting getting that data on a contemporary group of animals, that's something that's really important. Just a single animal uh doesn't tell us that much from a genetic standpoint. What we need is a contemporary group, and that's a group of light animals, so let's say all in the same plane, collecting those fecal samples, maybe more than one, a couple times, and and picking out those individuals that can consistently rank better, having a lower fecal egg count, which indicates that they have more natural resistance, and that's something you can select for. You can take that a step further, and and this is really the technology that we promote a lot, is to use quantitative genetics and so estimated breeding values. For anyone that's familiar with particularly in the cattle world, you know, you look at a a bull sail catalog, and there will always be a picture of a bull and a bunch of EPDs underneath it. And EPDs are just calculations of genetic merit for things that are hard to see or hard to measure. And so, like the classic one that a lot of us are familiar with is birth weight in bulls and low birth bulls, and selecting for that helps reduce the soda. Well, in in the sheep world, we have the same type of technology, but we call them estimated breeding values, and there is an EBV for speaker leg count. And so selection of that for that trait with that tool has really proven in a lot of breeds to improve, improve resistance and make healthier feed in there.
Sarah:Interesting. So the Caribbean breeds of sheep, do you have any suggestions of goat breeds that tend to be more resistant?
Jake:Yeah, that's a good question. Honestly, kind of the the breed of goats that uh maybe hold the reputation of being a little bit more resistant are are key goats. And so again, they they are more developed in a fairly, fairly wet region. Uh now, the one thing that also comes into play when it comes to goats is their diet and and how they consume forage or browse. So they prefer to browse in most cases. And so a breed like a Spanish goat, which is is relatively common in the United States and especially kind of in the southern US, Spanish goats are browse. And they themselves are maybe not that known for being that parasite resistant, but if they are eating browse in an area that when we think about barber's pole worm, we're really talking about the first four inches of grouse, is where that that worm is going to be. And so if they're not consuming it, then they're not becoming infected. And so being able to kind of parcel out those differences, what is resistance and what is an animal that's just the end conclusion is still the same. You've got healthy animals. And so there is there's a variety of a resistance of susceptibility in the goat world too. And I should make this comment that we can't just think about it as a breed across breed thing, because there's a lot of variation within breeding. And so, again, through fecal leg county, um, even within a flock or within a herd, within a breed, we're gonna see variation and and that sets the stage for select.
Sarah:We all have that one patient who lives in a whole herd or flock, but it is the you know, I call them the lemon of the group. They always are parasitized, they're always thin, they're always shedding. I had a guy who had one borgoat, he bred her three times, and every single year all of her babies died of parasites. And I was like, stop. And so then he would get two Kikos, and now everything's like and I'm like, I bet we don't.
Jake:Yeah, I know. Yeah, and it's certainly not not to um you know speak poorly of four goats, but that be more parasite susceptible, especially you add something to stress on like having a kid, lactation, whatever immunity was working to their benefit at that point is probably not. And so it's yeah, well, one thing leads to another and it can it can be not so great.
Sarah:I think being a popular breed is always in your detriment, you know. I think they get overbred, they get inbred, like I think people, especially if they're being if they're popular for show reasons and they're being selected for show things and not things like parasite resistance, you know. I you know, I think it's the French bulldog thing all over. So I know you've done some other work on just on selecting genetics for just like general overall health. Talk to us a little bit about that work.
Jake:Yeah. And so um, yeah, I'll I'll expand on this a little bit, this idea of fecal egg counting and and selecting for animals that are have more parasite resistance. And and I'll I'll I want to say this up front that actually there have been some really cool research, not done by me, but elsewhere. Some colleagues that I that I work closely with, and this is really led by Dr. Scout, between animals that have lower fecal egg count. Feet with lower fecal egg count and a lower fecal egg count breeding value are appearing to be healthier and more resistant to other pesticides other than parasites. And so they're seeing higher levels of antibody levels of IgG and in in the colostrum uh in response to something as simple as like a a clostridial vaccine. And and so that's really exciting work because that is something that all of a sudden is kind of unique to small ruminants. We can we can do this procedure of collecting the fecal leg count, selecting for it, partly selecting for it, our herds or our flock healthier in general. And so that's still being explored. Some of that is again, we're collaborating with Dr. Bowdridge and and looking in some breeds here that are popular here that again are are more susceptible to parasites and making sure that that uh is true, but there's a tremendous amount of promise in that area.
Sarah:And uh, and so in the next few years, you know, and that's like you said, it's something so simple to do. You know, say you have, you know, your your lambs from this year, you're trying to select who do I put in the freezer, who do I save for a breed? You know, when they're young, even before you finish them off, you can, you know, let's do each individual fecal a count. And then how long later would you say repeat? Maybe two months, three months, and then like make the three and be like, okay, you're always higher, you're always younger. The higher one, you're going in the freezer, the younger one, you can be my breeder. Like, and to know that potentially not only will they be more parasite resistant, but also will they be healthier in other aspects, like that's so easy.
Jake:Yeah, yeah, that's that's really cool. Collecting the samples and making sure that you're creating what is uh environmental variable. And so I will say, you know, fecal egg counts are moderately heritable, so in the in the 0.3 range. And so what that means is it's something that we can select for. Absolutely. There's there's a genetic component to it, and over you know, kind of some prolonged selection, we will make improvements. But we again we have to make sure that we have good data. And so one of those things is collecting at a post-weaning time period. That's probably the most critical fecal egg count. Because if you collect a fecal sample on a group of lambs at weaning, that's great. But you need to be able to consider the fact that if this lamb is a single, it's probably getting a lot better nutrition than a twin that was competing with its twin for its maternal environment. Uh and we know that you know undernourished animals are gonna have the less prepared from a From a parasite resistant standpoint. Age is a big part of that. This this maternal environment in general, how that lamb was raised, continue to confound just a raw fecal like alliance. So, really, probably the best time to focus on collecting that is post-cleaning. So after we uh we get in the in the same in the same management scenario in one group, theoretically, they're exposed to the same parasite threshold on the pasture, they're eating the same thing, and then we collect those samples, use that information. But once they enter into production, so now we're past a year or so, again, that's those variables start to confound the information that we're looking at. So if you got you can't really compare a pregnant or a lactating animal to one that's open the stress levels there and how that impacts immunity, natural defense, it's something that's just too hard. And so being smart about like-aged animals, like-aged, like managed animals, collecting those samples times, that's that's the best way to do it.
Sarah:And I would also probably say that an animal is more stressed during weaning than pregnant. Like that's like the most stressful time, either. And so, I mean, those fecals are gonna be, you know, have cocktidia in them, which is probably gonna, you know, yeah.
Jake:Other other health things are coming into it.
Sarah:Sometimes I like to hold hands and run around in fecals because I have my own fecals, it's how my kids make money. I make them prepare them and then I do the microscope. So I see them all on a very regular basis. It's probably not really worth an efficient use of my time, but I like to like if I can, if I have time. If someone handed me 20, I'd be like, okay, we're sending these to the lab. But you know, like I said, I have four goats in your backyard. That's like my practice. So it's easy for me to do my own sequels, but it's perfect job for the kids.
Jake:I I like that. Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah:Okay, so not only are we other genetic health things, but we can still look at poop to kind of determine that also. That's just that's so interesting.
Jake:Um as well as it's look at poop for what they're eating also. And so using some near infrared technology, NIR technology, uh, in some classes of of sheep and goats, we can we can look at that fecal sample and tell what their diet is, diet quality, what what they're browsing on out in the pasture. And so we start to see a larger picture. We can we can look at things like parasites, we can look at stuff like what they're eating, we can we can look at the health of the animal and the condition of the animal, and it all starts to tell us, is this the right fit for the environment? Is this sheep or this goat or this breed in a good situation to thrive? Or is it not? Are they are they parentally thin? Are they parentally parasitized like you talked about in in your one-born nanny? And and that helps producers and that helps owners of those livestock make interesting, interesting. So that's we're gonna start seeing that in the future, being able to Yeah, and and uh I would say that that those analyses are are probably a little bit more common in the bovine world when it comes to ruminants, but we're trying to expand that technology more in in sheep and goats as well. And yeah, I think that it it can have it helps draw the connection between pasture and animal health and and condition, which is important.
Sarah:Absolutely, absolutely. All right, what else are you working on?
Jake:What else are you telling your clients about that all of my Pecal egg count breeding values and parasite resistant breeding values, but genetics and and genetic selection as a whole is is broader than just that. And so one of the things and the fact that in most cases that's a good thing. That's something that we want to see. And sure, there's other species that can have twins, but often they uh it's not something that they're hoping for. And so how do we kind of set animals up for success and having two babies? And and so we can select for that as well with with quantitative genetics, we can select for improved improved growth, we can imp select for improved wool quality, but uh it all is gonna depend on what is important in your flock or in your farm and what are kind of your goals, and then we can help kind of balance um I I say this like like we, but using that technology you can help.
Sarah:Are most of your bigger herds and flocks breeding naturally or are they using AI?
Jake:Yeah, that's a great question. For the most part, in the commercial soup world, it's almost exclusively natural service. And so rams are are going out and the breeding use live cover. One other thing that's pretty prominent in commercial seed production in our part of the world, and so we're not just putting one ram or billy goat out, we're putting a group, and they're they're mating a larger flock or a larger herd. And so, how do you practice genetic selection when in an environment like that where you've got multiple potential sires, and maybe you're not actually present at the birth of those lambs or kids. So that's a that's another area where DNA can really come into play. Um the technology there is it's testing and phenotyping done, and and so for you know, for 15 to 20 dollars, you can use DNA, you can figure out the pedigree of an animal that was mated in a multi-sire breeding scenario in an extensive hands-off environment, and uh get all that pedigree information, and then that helps that's really the foundation of genetic select. There there is AI that's done mostly in the show world. It's becoming much more popular to kind of promote semen and and and ideal or superior sires, if you may, and then that's that's that uh germplasm can be shipped all across the country, and laparoscopic AI is really blown up in popularity.
Sarah:Yeah, just for anybody who doesn't know, artistically inseminating sheep and goats is not the same as cows. Sheep, especially Dr. Thorne mentioned it's laparoscopic AI. It's basically a small mini surgery. With goats, we can do it vaginally like we do in cows. At least in my experience and what I've read, we don't have the success levels that they have in cows. It's just harder. It's harder to catch them in heat, it's harder to get them to take. So it's definitely not the industry that it is in the bovine world. But yeah, for show animals and stuff like that, you could probably definitely move your genetics along.
Jake:There there is some AI that is done in kind of a seed stock level that's that's selling rams or or uh Billy GOAT to commercial producers, but most of that is imported semen from other countries. And so either South Africa or or Australia, New Zealand, if if they're you know, the for breeds that are popular in in both countries, there are American producers that are going to those countries, purchasing semen or purchasing embryos and and bringing them back to the US and kind of help improve or at least in their opinion, improve the genetics in their flock. And so some of that is done. I I don't want to say that it's it's all entirely natural cover because that's fully true, but it's easily the dominant form of me.
Sarah:Yeah, yeah. And I I think that's true most in most of the country, let's say. Yeah. All right. So the other thing that I wanted to touch on that we had talked about when I was just looking over Dr. Thorne's kind of extension page or whatever, he has a lot of information and he informed me he's not the expert, but he can talk about it, is guardian dogs, which I thought was so interesting. And I know most of us large animal vets do not want to vet dogs, but most of us do have a handful of guardian dogs that we do vet while we're there to be just vaccines or whatever. But, you know, I think that's a super interesting topic. I would never have thought to explore it had I not seen it on there. But and one thing we talked about is, you know, I live in the frozen time ground, so those, you know, great beer needs to love it beer. They do fabulous. It never gets hotter than 85 here in Western New York. It's different down in the south. But I don't know if you just want to touch on it, give us some tips about, you know, having guardian dogs out in your flocks. One question that everybody has asked me that I want you to answer for us if you know. Is it better to put them out when they're puppies with the herd or flock, or wait till they're older and calmer to put them out with the animals? Everybody asked me this. I don't know the answer. Please tell me.
Jake:Absolutely. So quickly, background livestock guardian dog, predation is a huge, huge problem. Um, keeping goats deal with predation. And predominantly that is with coyotes. They're the most prominent predator, probably in the US. But feral dogs, domestic dogs are another one. Uh, and then even if you want to lump wolves into that discussion, and I bring those up because why livestock guardian dogs are effective is because they speak the same language as our primary predators. They're all canides of some kind. And and so really what a livestock guardian dog does is yeah, they're they confront a predator and have a they are exclusionary in the in the they establish a kind of a protective boundary, they pee higher up on a tree, they bark loud at night, and the the coyote basically recognizes that hey, there is a large canine in here, and this is not something that I want. And and so that's how in a lot of cases they're they're really affected. But livestock guardian dogs are breeds, specific breeds that have been selected for this behavior. And it is super important that they are bonded correctly with their livestock early in life. So the bonding period, the period that they they need to be with sheep and goats, or whatever you're expecting them to guard, is six to sixteen weeks. Uh so pretty young, absolutely. And and so I really encourage to those animals to be out. And in many cases, we recommend having a bonding pen, so a smaller area, so especially when the pups are younger, we're talking like a you know, a 40 by 40 or a 60 by 60 pen that they can be in there with some sheep or generally cheaper goats that are used to dogs, used to guard dogs, uh are better and they were stressed in that time constantly through that bonding period. And they will develop that bond, and so that later on in life, through the rest of their life, that is what they are they are primed to guard. And they again, it doesn't have to be just sheep and goats, it can be poultry, or right now we have actually at our research center we have a trial going on with some guard dogs that are being bonded up and wait until they're older. That bond is going to be established with you. And and so that's where that protection is coming from. For some people that have very small acreage, the guard dog maybe be is kind of on patrol for the flock, but also the property in general. Maybe that's not as big as a deal. You know, in a larger situation where really the sheep and goats are what need to be protected, that bond needs to be established there. And so, yes, that first year of life is really, really critical when it comes to kind of training and preparing them, preparing them for thick fat.
Sarah:Another predator that is not a predator, but that guard dogs are really important for in my neck of the woods is keeping the deer away and lowering our incidence of meningal worm.
Jake:Okay, that's that's that's an interesting concept because in our part of the world, deer are a very valuable part of the industry. Hunting is is something that really and so we don't want our dogs, we don't want our dogs spending time chasing deer. Um whether that's you know, whether they're being protective or not, that's just it's not something that we want them to necessarily do. But I I see how in in your situation maybe that's a little bit different. So yeah, that's really kind of unique. I'm I'm glad you brought that up.
Sarah:Yeah, they don't, I at least from what I've seen, they don't chase them. Mostly the deer just aren't willing to jump into the pastures where the dogs live. You know?
Jake:Yeah, yeah. No, livestock guardian dogs have proven to be something to really valuable in in our part of the world. But they're really they have kind of a short history in the United States. So so guard dogs have, you know, we're talking in in the 50-year range, have they only really been in the US, at least in any kind of um they've been with uh with herds of sheep thousands of years, but the history here is it's much shorter. And that that has to come with kind of some changes that producers are dealing with in terms of predation. And again, guard dogs have have proven to be a good fit and and are are helping to kind of mitigate some of those challenges.
Sarah:How do they do like you commented on chickens? Like here we have a big problem with like minks and fissures and like things like that getting at the chickens. Do they help with stuff like that?
Jake:Definitely, you know, that's outside of my realm of expertise. I I kind of stick to a small ruminant world, but I just know of, you know, anecdotally that guard dogs like in pastures poultry situations, guard dogs are are being utilized probably pretty well. They would again they would have to be bonded and primed for for some of that, and that's a whole different scenario than I um Okay.
Sarah:Interesting, interesting. Well, this has been a super interesting conversation. I've talked of I feel like we've talked about like five podcasts worth of stuff.
Jake:Yeah, sure.
Sarah:Is there anything else that's near and dear to your heart that you feel like we should talk about?
Jake:Oh no, not necessarily, but I I'm glad that we've we've touched on all these things. Uh, you know, parasite, health, productivity, protection from predators, those are all the main topics that that you know, small ruminants or I shouldn't say the main, but they they are critical topics in in the small ruminant world. And and so I, you know, I'm happy to visit with anyone that wants to kind of talk through any of those a little bit more. Those are things that I'm comfortable talking about and uh like to see improvement in in the industry if we can.
Sarah:Yeah, for sure. And Michelle, our producer, always puts your contact information in the notes to the podcast. So I know you're not doing much research currently, but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna ask you our end question. So I like to ask everybody, and lots of people, their answer hasn't been parasites. So our our kind of final question I like to ask all of our guests is what do you see as the next problem that researchers need to think about and address? And I the question is in small animal medicine, but it can just be in the or small ruminant medicine, but small ruminant world, I guess.
Jake:Yeah, no, that's that's a great question. And and I still do a little bit of research, mostly in in kind of the genetic world. And and it's uh just yesterday, we had our um kind of our extension group and our animal science department had a really big meeting with our stakeholders, our producers, and we asked them that very question. What what are your needs? What are your challenges that you're dealing with? And inevitably, you know, lots of lots of comments were made, but it it really boiled down to health and parasites. We need to know more about health and parasites, potentially some some more treatment strategies. And so as we know that you know, anthementics and and dewormers, there's not that many of them labeled for small ruminants, and we're probably not going to see a lot of new products developed or released anytime, you know, maybe, but we can't necessarily hold our breath for that. And so, how how are we going to combine smart treatment? You know, what are what are the tools that we have the whole system of health? Um, better understanding of what diseases are are out there, surveillance of flocks for uh a variety of other things, non-parasite diseases, that's that's something else that I think veterinarians, you know, veterinary research can really do help kind of educate producers what is important in their regions or what other maybe their neighbors are dealing with. Uh and so that's great. And then just in general, selection. And so seeing an animal, liking what we see, and and and saying that's a good breeder, you know, implementing technology like I I mentioned earlier in the podcast, like estimated breeding values or genomic technology, DNA testing, kind of getting that broader picture of those hard to measure, hard to see traits that are so important. Parasite resistance, prolificacy, fitness to environment. Those are things that you often can't just look at a sheep or look at a goat and say, yeah, that one's good or that one's bad. And so, you know, getting getting technology out there, using that in in smart ways, and and from a research standpoint, just refining and making those too many tools outside of the deworming toolbox.
Sarah:So all right, I think that's a great answer. So, well, thank you, Dr. Thorne, for talking to us. It's been a super interesting conversation. And yeah, I'll have to come down to Texas and visit you and Michelle.
Jake:Any questions? Yeah, come to our research station. We'd love to have you. And I really appreciate you know again having me on the podcast. Uh, I know we just we we kind of talked about a bunch of different topics and and maybe not super in detail in any of them, but uh anytime uh you want to visit us more.
Sarah:Yeah, what I know you do a podcast. What put in a plug for your podcast?
Jake:Yeah, there we go. So I do host the research update podcast for the American Sheep Industry Association. So we're on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and SoundCloud is uh the platforms that you can find, the ASI Research. And we we try to cover all you know a whole host of different topics, variants um that are kind of involved in in those in that world for whatever topic we're doing. But yeah, we'd love to have you listen.
Sarah:Yeah, I've listened to a couple. It's really good, it's well done, it's great. So yeah, I give it two thumbs up also. So all right. Well, thank you so much for your time.
Jake:Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you.
