Baa's and Bleat's - The AASRP Podcast
Baa's and Bleat's - The AASRP Podcast
Producer Spotlight: Alpaca Farming with Christian Davies & Dr. Rachel Friedrich
This month we sit down with Christian Davies (of C&M Acres Alpacas and Fiber Mill) and his veterinarian, Dr. Rachel Friedrich from Iowa State University's Veterinary Field Service. Christina and his wife, Michele, raise alpacas and operate a fiber mill in Maxwell, IA. Dr. Friedrich not only provides veterinary care for C&M Acres but also collaborates with Christian and Michele to curate camelid-specific clinical training opportunities for third and fourth year veterinary students. This episode is all about producers and veterinarians learning and working together!
Resources discussed in this episode:
American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners - Veterinarians and vet students join today!
https://aasrp.org/Main/Main/Membership/Join-AASRP.aspx?hkey=6878474f-d347-4a79-bdbe-5a1896781821
The Alpaca Owners Association: https://www.alpacainfo.com/
Textbook: Veterinary Techniques for Llamas and Alpacas by DE Anderson, M Jones, & MD Miesner
Textbook: Llama and Alpaca Care by MS Cebra, A Tibary, LW Johnson, R Van Saun, & DE Anderson
If you or your organization would like to sponsor an episode of Baas and Bleats, please contact office@aasrp.org to learn more.
Hello out there. Thanks so much for joining us today on Baas and Bleeds. This is Michelle Buckley. I'm your guest host for the July edition of the show. For this month's producer highlight episode, we're going to be talking with Dr. Rachel Frederick from Iowa State University's Veterinary Field Service based in Ames, Iowa. And Dr. Frederick has brought along Christian Davies, who is the owner operator, along with his wife, of CM Acres, Fiverr Mill, and Alpacas, also in central Iowa. Welcome, Rachel and Christian. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'd love for the audience to get to know a little bit more about you all. So, Rachel, can we start with you? Might you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got here?
Rachel:Thanks for having me today, Michelle. I actually grew up on a family farm in northeast Nebraska, primarily swine, cattle, and row crops. I actually ironically did not have much for small ruminant or camelid background prior to graduating vet school, which is kind of funny now considering that I teach a majority of that here at Iowa State CBM. And I use that as an example for my students that nobody should be held back from deciding that they want to join the ranks of the vets that are doing small ruminant and camelid work because, again, not much background growing up with it, and yet it still seems to be working out okay. So I graduated ISU CBM in 2009 and from there went out to mixed animal practice in west central Iowa. For about six years, everything from dogs and cats to cattle, she goats, you name it. We did it. Even had a bobcat for a patient one time. From there, I spent a few years on the RD side developing vaccines in industry. And then came back to Iowa State in February of 2019 and now serve as a section leader for the field services group and teach quite a bit of ruminant medicine and surgery, especially with small ruminants.
Michelle:Awesome. Thank you, Rachel. So for those of you listening who aren't familiar with our backgrounds here, I just finished up a PhD at Iowa State, and Dr. Frederick was such an invaluable resource to me during my journey through the PhD and just my my journey through small ruminant and camelid medicine. So it's really cool to see how you know we're all just learning together, and you don't have to grow up with it in order to get good at it. So I'm really excited for an opportunity to finally get her on this podcast, drag her out of her little corner of the world. Okay, so that is the veterinarian half of today's dynamic duo. Let's talk a little bit more about our producers. Christian, could you tell us about yourself and your wife, Michelle, and how you guys got involved with alpacas because it's a really interesting story, and I think our listeners will really enjoy it. And what the heck are you guys doing over there in Iowa?
Christian:Again, thanks for inviting me to be part of this kind of different. I'm a born and raised Northeast Iowa farm boy. So traditional beef, dairy, hogs, cattle, that kind of thing. My wife, Michelle, who's not with us today, she is born and raised City Kid, Des Moines High School, went to Drake. All that's a pure city. We met, got married, decided we wanted to find an acreage, found an acreage, started living there, got horses because I grew up with horses. Horses are big. My wife was intimidated. So we were trying to find an animal that would be not meat animals, something that'd be small, and had somewhat of a personality. We found alpacas. So we actually found them watching an episode of Dirty Job, the old micro TV show, and had a business plan done by the end of the weekend because we're both accountants by trade. Got into alpacas in 2006. So we've been doing this for a while. 2012, we opened a fiber textile mill, so we could process any kind of fiber into yarn or whatever the people want. That allowed us to get out of our corporate jobs. We were both accountants.
Michelle:That's awesome. And and it keeps you guys very busy today, right?
Christian:This year than we'd like to. We've got about a two-year wait list on processing right now. So we're always smoking.
Michelle:So this isn't necessarily an ad for your fiber mill as much as it is just an educational opportunity, but you are still taking orders, right?
Christian:Oh yes. I mean, we always take orders. You're just gonna wait a while. Um we process all species. The alpaca started because we knew nothing about fiber. We suddenly had a bunch of alpacas and shared them and went, now what the heck? So we learned how to do everything by hand, then decided to open the mill. Awesome.
Michelle:And um, well, thank you so much for taking the time out of your very busy schedule to chat with us today and hopefully share some tips for success with our veterinarians and producers that are listening that they can put to good use and implement on their own operations. So let's dive in. I obviously have gotten to see the relationship between you and Dr. Frederick firsthand during my time at Iowa State, and I think it's really unique. And honestly, I wish every vet student got to visit C and M Acres and you know spend the day like Dr. Frederick's students do, just learning how you guys do things and then where it goes and even as far as the end product, because I think that really gives veterinarians some useful insight when we're trying to understand producer concerns, right? So, Dr. Frederick, could you explain a little bit to our listeners about how you came to meet Christian and Michelle and what kind of educational opportunities their operation provides to you and your students outside of you know traditional farm calls?
Rachel:Yeah. So when I started at Iowa State, literally on my first day here, you know, I was told, hey, guess what? We have this clinical skills course for first and second year students, and you're gonna be in charge of it. And I went, oh, okay, yeah, we'll get that done. And so that course had been ever evolving over about five to seven year period since it had been started by other clinicians. And one of the clinicians that had been in charge of it in the past had a significant interest in small ruminant and Camelin medicine. And so they had developed this relationship with Christian and Michelle first. So I literally had the privilege of being able to send an email and go, hey, guess what? I'm still in charge now. Can we can we continue to do this as a relationship? And they were great to work with. Yep, let us know what you want to do and when you're coming, and we will get things organized. And I remember after first time on the farm was actually when I brought the students, and Christian asked me kind of what my background was, and I said, swine and cattle. I had one alpaca client in private practice. The first couple years I was in practice, and then they sold out. And so I was very honest from the get-go that I had limited knowledge base to begin with, and I'd really only been in that role for a couple months at that point. And Christian just kind of said, Okay, we'll roll with it. And so our relationship with bringing students out has evolved from there. I was again fortunate to have people ahead of me that developed some really nice opportunities that I just was able to continue and then kind of adapt. And so we went from initially having once a year bringing about 25 students out for a clinical skills class that was mostly focused on handling and husbandry and sub Q injections, blood collection, things like that. So now we still have that course, but then we also have a clinical rotation for fourth-year students, and we've done everything from ultrasounding for pregnancy to doing castrations on site. It's a great opportunity for teaching for the students because we try to keep it as a low stress, fun environment for everybody, starting off as we all are starting from zero, as if you have no experience whatsoever. Don't be intimidated by somebody in your group that has way more experience than you. I think in all these years, I've had one student that raised camelids and those were lamas, you know, that came out. Otherwise, everybody else is essentially starting from ground zero. So low pressure, low stress also helps keep it lower stress for the animals involved that way too. And so we kind of just started developing our that client-patient relationship off of the courses and now bounce ideas off of each other. So sometimes they will call me with question, and other times I go, hey, I have another client that I need to do this with. What do you recommend? What have you tried that has worked better for you all? Because I feel like that husbandry piece is something that a lot of times the veterinarian's missing. We're not the ones that are out there trying to do that bandaging every single day. You know, we're not the ones that are trying to come up with creative ways to get an extra mineral boost into that animal, you know. And so I think there are lots of opportunities for vets to learn stuff from their clients if they're willing to slow down and listen and kind of gather some of that information on what works and what doesn't from the client.
Michelle:Yeah, absolutely. This is such a unique opportunity for students, and you have put so much time and energy and mental effort into curating it and turning it into what it is today. So big kudos to you, Rachel. I think this is a really unique opportunity for our vet students, and I'm really proud that they get that opportunity. You really, I know that wasn't probably what you envisioned for your life when you started at Iowa State, but um it's really cool. So great job, Christian. You know, I think this is a great example of something we talked about in our episode, our last producer highlight, where John Higgins said, I've learned just as much or more from clients as I have from vet school and textbooks and CE. And you guys really are just a wealth of information over there. Um so, and you're very intentional about how you educate the vet students and what what types of opportunities you think are important for them to receive, and you guys schedule everything in such a way that they get the most out of those visits. And so, Christian, can you tell us a little bit about what what procedures or what skills you think vet students really need to get and and how you've kind of formulated the visits in your own mind because you've played a very active role in this developing relationship as well.
Christian:You know, again, it's been a very long-running relationship, even prior to Rachel, just because we've evolved this over such a long period. You know, for us it's so important because when we started back in 2006, it was impossible to find a vet that knew anything about Camelids, and let alone even would approach. Actually, back in 2006, I couldn't have not I could not have brought a CAMLED to Iowa State. It would not have seen it. I would have had to gone to Minnesota or Wisconsin or something. So prior to 2010, we couldn't even come here. Once they started seeing them, it changed very, very drastically. So it got to be a chance to learn on both sides on how to go about doing things. You know, so for us, a lot of times the biggest things we're telling these vet students is alpaca people are not farmers as a general rule. Nine out of ten alpaca people know nothing about farming and other livestock if they have pets. So for vets, it's always so important to assume that that breeder has the knowledge of what's going on with that animal, but knows nothing about how a vet would normally approach things from a livestock direction. We're always telling the vet students assume they own nothing, assume it's a very expensive show cat, show dog, something like that, explain everything in detail. You know. So it's just and now with so many vet colleges doing camelids, it's a lot, lot easier to find a vet that has some experience or at least knows who they can call to talk to about it.
Michelle:Yeah, absolutely. I think this is just a testament to all of our vets and producers out there about being brave and you know trying something new. And even if you graduated before your vet school started talking about camelids and small ruminants, there's still time and you can still learn. And producers, it goes for you too. You know, sometimes you have to give people a chance if they say, I haven't done this before, but I'm willing to give it a try. It's a growing relationship. So definitely an opportunity to start with maybe not a whole lot, but get a lot out of it. Christian, was it scary for you guys the first time you finally found a vet to work on your animals? Were you like, oh no, they don't know anything? Or were you pretty confident?
Christian:I mean, I'm a farm kid, so I grew up knowing a lot of things, you know, just because I was a farm kid and I had small hands, so my dad had me put the hands places a lot of times for the holstein cows. But yeah, it was a problem. So we had a local vet that was a horse guy, and he was at least willing to talk to us twice, and then he was done. And then we found a vet that had done llamas, never seen an alpaca, and he was more than proud to tell us that. He ultimately, uh when he closed his practice, actually sold his truck and everything to field services, which actually started ISU Field Services going out. So that also helped tie us in even tighter to field services at that time.
Michelle:Gotcha, gotcha. That's definitely something that I've encountered when I was in practice with his clients, would be, or even now I get you know calls from vets who are like, this person's really scared to work with someone who's never, you know, really done a whole lot with alpacas, and it's like, well, it's a valid feeling, but you got to start somewhere, right? So okay, I think it's great that we've kind of gotten a baseline for the educational side of what you guys do. But Christian, we're here to talk about you as a producer. So can you tell us more about your herd and what your goals are, where you started, where are you at now, and kind of how you run things on a daily or maybe even an annual basis. And also highlight any particular practices that you guys utilize that you've found to be helpful in achieving your goals.
Christian:Where we are now compared to when we started, it's just in a totally different environment. When we started back in 2006, basically, if Nalpaca had a uterus, it cost a minimum of $20,000 and easily went over $100,000. Could be the crappiest fiber in the world, but there were so few of them. And we can't import them, so you're stuck with what's here. So at that time, you know, white was what was around. There was a few of the other colors, so everybody was breeding for the 22 colors other than white. But their fiber, the darker the color, the crappier the fiber. Because most everything that was imported from South America was white. And they bred for white because I had the best, the finest fiber and could be dyed and could be done anything. Usually they euthanized and ate anything that was colored back down there. So here in US, Europe, and Australia, we love the color, so everybody's breeding for them, but it's taken a long time to get colored animals' fiber down to equal white. So when we started, we said, okay, we're going way out there, we're going for black and gray. Black being the coarsest of the animals, and gray being the absolute hardest to get because of the recessive genetics and getting on. Plus the fact that we have no clue what the heck we're gonna get out of any pairing of colors since the genetics aren't understood. It's a bit of a crap shoot. So when we started, we specialized in blacks and grays. You know, our second or third year, we suddenly had 15 little black Krias running around with 15 black moths. And we didn't know about neck bands with collars on them, so it was really fun trying to keep them all straight. Over time, we added color, we started with wakayas, the fluffy ones. We after a while added surreis, the dreadlock kind, just for a variety. We added all the different colors, you know. We started with six, we were up to 106 at one point in time. When COVID hit, we were around 75 and we made the conscious decision. As we sold, we wanted to, you know, kind of get the herd down a little bit because we just got so stinking busy in our fiber. And now it just we keep selling more and more every year, so that kind of changes. But as far as our strategy is we're always trying to improve no matter what color we're going for, we're always trying to bring the fiber. You know, the best fiber on any animal is not gonna have a lot of blanket weight because the fineness and the density are mutually exclusive. So on an alpaca, you're always gonna have to do a give and take. So we're always trying to cross and breed to get a better fiber on every animal that we make and try to get the colors we're trying to get to. So again, that's a crapshoot. You know, nutrition is huge. You know, we were always told when we started, you know, grass hay only that can't handle anything else. Well, that's not true. Alfalfa works, but you just can't let on free choice because then become pigs. You know, we don't have enough selenium in our soil anywhere in the United States, so there's always a mineral that's not feed that we've got to make sure is at. You know, biosecurity has always been a big issue. So we're always trying we have relatively a closed herd unless we have some in for breeding, in which case they have their own barn to stay in why they're in for breeding. The records, we've tried computerized systems, we've done lots of different things, and yeah, we have a notepad for every animal. It's just easier that way. And we have a big spreadsheet that the vet students are all used to seeing, and Rachel's used to seeing, but that's also what we use every month. We do her so but all those things, and us, my wife and I both being accountants, we're kind of anal that way. So record keeping and just keeping track of everything's how we do it.
Michelle:Yeah, that's awesome. You guys are such a good example. I wish alpaca future alpaca owners would like come and shadow you for a day before they buy animals and be like, this is just how you need to set it up. We can just like ingrain that anal retentiveness in them from the beginning. So, what are you breeding for right now? What are you going for a certain color or just really high quality fiber? What what do you what are you doing?
Christian:For the better fiber. We're still always trying to go for grays, but it's so tough to get them. It's always a crapshoot. So we're always still going for that. We're still going for the fiber just because our fiber is usually gone within a month of shearing, just being added to other people's fiber at their request. So we have to buy two to three thousand pounds a year for our mill just for blending for other people, besides theirs that we're processing. Up until COVID, we actually taught alpacas 101 the first weekend of every single month. So to your quest your comment earlier about people trying to learn, we used to spend a full day on a first Saturday of every single month offering a class to anybody that was interested in raising them. So that was a lot of our marketing way back when. And then when COVID hit, obviously all that started. And now we just don't do it anymore. Yeah.
Michelle:I feel like you might get some requests after this episode comes out. I would sign up. Um awesome. Well, I, as I've mentioned, I always learn so much from you and Michelle every time I get to come out and visit with Rachel's class. And I'm sure if you were to start doing those Alpaca 101 classes, they would be a big hit. But for the time being, with how busy you are at the mill, it's it might be more beneficial to let people know where you get your information. I mean, you guys started out not knowing anything either, right? So how do you decide what information is useful or evidence based or actually true? And how do you know what's garbage? Because there's a lot of stuff out there. And I know you're very analytical. So help our listeners decide or come up with a way to understand, you know, how to find good information about camelids.
Christian:There's a ton of information out there, and there's a ton of really crazy. Information out there. You know, so for us, ours was a school of hard knocks. You know, you learned because there wasn't a lot of vet experience out there. So there was a book that used to be put out by a vet that was kind of the Bible for camelid owners and alpaca owners that's not printed anymore, so you can't get it. So our association, the Alpaca Owners Association, is a good resource. It has a lot of stuff that you can get to. But honestly, the best thing you can do is have a mentor farm. Somebody that's been doing it, even if it's for a little while, they know more than you, so that you have somebody to go to that you can ask questions of. I have no problem sending Rachel an email saying, you know, if it's anything medical related, saying, okay, here's what I'm seeing, here's what I think, what do you think? You know. So for us, you know, it's it's a mentor, it's a valid source. There are some great Facebook groups that are out there that are on camelids and alpacas, and a couple of them have vets as the moderators. Those are pretty good. But ignore almost 99.9% of the comments that people make because they don't know the circumstance. They're in the wrong part of the country, the wrong world, or just don't really have a clue, but they all have a very good opinion.
Michelle:That's totally true. I've definitely seen a lot of interesting opinions on Facebook groups who from very well-meaning people who just like as with most things, if you don't have the whole story and all the details, it's really hard to relate. So I'm gonna push you a little bit more on this question because you know, finding a mentor, everyone says they want to find a mentor, but finding a good mentor is really what we need to do. Um, and sometimes a good mentor is not necessarily the closest person who has the same animals as you. So when you guys were first starting out, you know, what made you trust the people who were giving you advice versus people who you kind of walked away from a little bit and were like, hmm, that's that's not really what we want to do.
Christian:The reality is when you're talking to people, is I mean, luckily some of the people we bought from when we first started were vets, you know, so I kind of trusted them a little bit more. Um readers that had been doing this for quite a while. Readers that before answered asked more questions of what you know, it's not just here's what I got, what do you think? They followed up with, okay, before I answered, give me some more details. You know, so it wasn't just they're allowed to get on their pulpit and lecture, it was actually trying to understand the entire situation. So that was huge for us. Um, we get emails all the time, people asking us questions that we have absolutely no clue who the heck they are. You know, it but they have alpacas that they got an auction or came with their farm, and can we help? And we try to as much as we can within reason. We had one just right before the last rotation that emailed us with a bunch of questions. I said, Okay, you're out of my league, get a hold of field service. So rotation a week later, I said, by the way, Rachel, did you talk to some? And hey, we both had seen the same picture of the animal. She actually got to go see the animal and deal with it. Awesome.
Michelle:I I think there is a lot to be said for producers helping producers and also for producers knowing when to say, okay, this is beyond my capabilities, and you know, passing them off to a veterinarian. So good job, as always, you know, knowing where to draw the line. Um but I really like that point about people who ask more questions before they give an answer. I think that's valid in a lot of different areas of life, but certainly finding a mentor, especially. So, as a follow-up to those questions, and Christian, feel free to jump in on this as you see fit. But do you guys have tips for veterinarians and producers on how to build a productive veterinarian client-patient relationship? And especially for younger vets that are just diving into the world of camelids or folks who've been out for a while but are feeling brave and trying something new. How can producers build trust with a veterinarian that might not be an expert in their species yet?
Rachel:Excuse me. Yeah, I'll jump in to start that off. I think the biggest thing is being honest about what your limitations are to begin with. Um not just in the camelid small ruminant world, but I actually ended up with a farm client in my first year of practice that had two, 3,000 head finisher hog barns and had over 400 mama cows and things like that. And I ended up with them as a client because I literally said, I don't know, but I will ask and I will look this, look at this until I figure it out, right? But then the key to that is you gotta follow up. You can't say, Oh, I'm gonna go in and look this up and then they disappear and they never hear from you again. But people are pretty good with their fake it radar, I'll say, instead of using the other term for it. So if you if you try to fake your way through it, they're gonna figure it out, right? And you're actually gonna gain more respect by saying, I don't know, but we'll learn this together, we'll figure it out together, I will find people to talk to, you know. My new alpacas right now is actually reindeer. That there's not many reindeer in Iowa. There's one farm. Guess who is the best for that now? Um, and so there's so much information there to go off of. And so you you gotta be open and honest. And then I'm gonna borrow something from my chiropractor that told me he asked his patients in a perfect world, what would be the outcome of today's visit for you? You know, so we kind of cut to the chase about what we're looking for on both sides of the conversation then, because it may be well, I want it to be perfect tomorrow, and we as vets go, I'm sorry, but I don't think that's gonna be realistic. But here's what we can do right now. You know, in this recent case that Christian mentioned, where they reached out to him first and then they called us, we went out and looked at that animal and said, This needs more extensive diagnostic work than we can do on the farm. So we're gonna bring a group together in with the CVM to get some imaging done, to see what we can do to help her out, right? And so it involved just like setting expectations on both sides, um, learning what the goals were for each other, you know. Is this a pet animal? Is this a fiber-producing animal? Am I willing to go the whole nine yards for this, or we just want a quality of life situation? Just being as open and honest with each other as possible.
Christian:100% with what she said. The biggest thing for us is, you know, having somebody admit that they don't know, but they are gonna find answers, and again, following up. I mean, the BS meter, as I would call it, can peg pretty dang quick, and most people are gonna figure that out. I don't think any alpaca breeder is going to expect a vet to walk in and know everything about camel. It just doesn't happen. There just aren't enough of them. You know, a lot of these small ruminants are that way. So admitting you don't know, but then also listening to what that breeder owner is telling you. You know, they are not vets, like I said before, that they don't have a livestock background, but they know what's going on with that animal. And alpacas and llamas being a prey species hide their problem so well. So by the time the vet is usually called, they're pretty dang sick. You know, it's just not that obvious what's going on. So listening to what the vets have or what the producer has to say.
Rachel:Even on your routine herd health stuff, I think my number one practice tip for my fourth years is if you go in there and they say, This is Dolly, Dolly spits, listen to them because they have experienced this before, you know, or this one kicks, this one spits, you know, listen to them because they have they've experienced it, and you can prepare yourself that way instead of saying, Oh, well, you know, I'm probably just better at handling than you are, so I'm gonna go ahead and kiss a death in that situation. Yeah.
Michelle:For sure. So I think what I'm hearing from both of you is that track record isn't always the best indicator of potential in a veterinarian. Like sometimes as the vet, you get called in the worst situation where it's like, there's there's no way we're gonna be successful here. And I think that scares a lot of producers off when they're like, oh, I've heard five people say the alpacas died when this vet came out and worked on them. But maybe willingness and openness and and interest in you know scientific evidence might be a better predictor of the potential of a veterinarian that's still developing their skills, or you know, one that's been established for a while as well. Is that fair enough?
Rachel:It is, and I I think also it's hard, especially as a new grad, when you really want to establish that client base and you wanna you want you just want everybody to like you. Like you really do. You just want everybody to like you. But the reality of the world is that all sometimes there are personality mismatches. It's not that they don't like you, they just like this person more, you know? And so getting to that point, and I guess I don't know, maturity or something like that that helps you understand that it it's not personal, it's business and a second opinion. Like I am totally fine with working with more than one veterinarian on a farm as long as we can keep open communication with everybody that's involved. I may not always be available, the other person might not always be available, but I need to know what has been prescribed or what has been done for treatments both ways. You know, we have multiple situations on farms where there's more than one practice, even that's involved. That's fine as long as we all know what each other is doing, and we're not trying to hide anything from one or the other, or the client for that matter.
Michelle:Yeah, for sure. It's hard being, especially like a new grad or new in an area. I I walked into a situation like this where everyone's oh, good old Dr. So and so. Man, he knew everything, he could fix everything, and you're fresh out of school with a lot of insecurity and you know, working on a species you're not super comfortable with, going I don't think I would do it the same way as a good old Dr. So-and-so, and I don't know how that's gonna go over. That's really intimidating. So part of the growing pains, I suppose.
Christian:I can throw in one thing that I've noticed in working with the vet students now for at least 15 years, probably. I mean, that we've been working with rotations and stuff, is that your comment about good old so so-and-so, Mr. Whatever vet. We have found over the years, it's my wife and I together. I mean, we're we do everything together, we all the discussions are combined. Good old Mr. Such and such only would ever talk to me, would never talk to my wife who actually signs all the checks and pays all the bills. So one thing we noticed, and it's definitely changed with the vet students going through, is that if there's two people there, you talk to two people equally. You know, and we've also noticed, and it's a bit stereotypical, that the female vets tend to get along with the alpaca people a whole lot better than the male vets. Part of that is I think empathy, that they're willing to listen a little bit more and they're willing to work smarter, not harder. I've had to tell vet students just to stop more than once, and usually it's a guy vet for trying to manhandle an animal that it's just not gonna end well for anybody. We've had a few bounced off walls during the training. Never while Rachel is free, Rachel. But you know, good old doc such and such, yeah, he may knew know a lot about a livestock, but basically everybody starts the same with the camelids just because there's just not a lot of experience. So some good empathy helps, willing to talk to whoever's there, male or female. I mean, it's just something we've seen over the years.
Michelle:Absolutely. That's really helpful insight, Christian. Thank you. All right. Rachel, as a veterinary educator, what kinds of skills and resources do you really emphasize for your students and and try and help them develop in school so that they're ready to take on new challenges with camelids and just with new species in general when they get out into practice?
Rachel:Yeah, so I wish I could remember their name. I remember a practitioner, I think I'm pretty sure it was a swine practitioner coming through for a noon talk when I was in vet school, and they basically said, you got to know the basics and you got to know how to do them well for people to trust you to do the more complicated things, right? Now, does that mean that I can hit a vein perfectly every time? No, right? There are days that it just seems to be a struggle, and I think anybody, any practitioner listening that says it's never for them is lying through their teeth. Everybody has their days, you know, but I want them to know the basic herd health things. So we are in white-tailed deer country where we're at here in Ames, Iowa. They're everywhere, and so meningial worm is a big issue for us on both prevention and treatment. So that's a big part of our discussion for lectures and in our fourth year clinical rotations because they if they practice in white-tailed deer country, they will see it eventually. We even go through things as simple as where do you put a microchip on an alpaca? Because you're probably not going to get that information anywhere else except for contacting the AOA, the owner's association, to tell you it's the base of the left ear, you know. And so we try to go through with um, okay, they need their toenails trimmed, they're gonna need teeth done, you know, when do the fighting teeth erupt and how do we trim those? Even though we as vets rarely actually do the trimming because the shears usually do it for us, but at least if they are involved with a rescue or a shelter situation or owners that didn't have that background information, we can say, okay, here we are. We're gonna go ahead and get this done at the same time. Mostly what we try to give them is the opportunity to do basic hands-on clinical skills like injections and blood collection, physical exams, and just general handling because so few have actually had a chance to do those skills ahead of time. You know, they've never walked into a pen and had to understand not only how they move in groups and sorting one out, but how to actually catch them and restrain them instead. And so we start really, really basic and then they move up from there. And most of their more intense things are going to be experiences on their clinical rotations. So animals coming into the teaching hospital, animals that field services seize, and but with the focus of at least let's start with the preventive medicine. I want you to know the basics there. Nobody is ever going to have 100% of the knowledge. It's so funny to me that so many of our students think we just know everything, right? Like I can pull it out of my brain from wherever, and the truth is you have to know how to research, right? As much as possible, because you will encounter things that you have not experienced before, no matter how long you're in your career. None of us saw high path avian influenza jumping into dairy cattle and camelids and small ruminants until about a year and a half ago, right? And now we're all learning that together. So being willing to research and adapt and continue to learn and grow as you go through your years as a practitioner, a super important skill. No one to say I don't know, but I'll find out. As far as resources go, there's a couple books that we use, and I will get you those so that you can drop them in the notes.
Michelle:Thank you.
Rachel:One of them is techniques in camelids, and I'm a very visual learner, and it has a ton of great pictures in it, and so besides descriptions. So I love that one from the standpoint that it shows me pictures of a CAMLED castration. And I tell the students, like, download this one, we're lucky, we can download it from the library, take it with you before you leave because you may not get asked for two years to do one, and now you have to go back and take a look at that procedure again. Have it with you so you know what you're looking at. Some of the hardest resources are there's just not much funding for actual peer-reviewed clinical research, especially in the pharmacology side of things. So a lot of it ends up being who's tried what and it didn't kill something to begin with, you know. Like I hate to say it that way, but that's always the first question. Do you know somebody that's tried this more than once and it ended up okay both times? You know, more than once. Once might have been luck, you know. And so a lot of our drugs that we use and the dosages that we use have been extrapolated from other species and trial and error more than we have clinical research. And so I'm always putting the plug out there to every student that once they invent something that makes them a rich veterinarian, they can supply some research funding. We laugh when we say rich veterinarian, right? Some research for uh for giving us some better evidence-based medicine versus some of the we just have to try it, you know, and sometimes we just get brave and we go, well, we tried all the other things already and this isn't working, so it's time to extrapolate something from another species or just get super brave and see what happens. But I know all of us would be more comfortable if we had more research-based approaches or evidence-based approaches for some of our treatment things.
Michelle:For sure. One thing that you mentioned was finding resources, which is such a challenge. But I think that's one of the like most important things about learning to be a good veterinarian is like learning where to find information. Alpaca Owners Association, like that's not something that I think coming straight out of school, you're gonna think to go and ask them about where to place a microchip. But I think that's a really important point to bring up and something that you bring to the rotation is you know, where more important than the information itself is where to find it. And if you don't know where to find it, you know, how do you how do you suss that out? So thanks for fighting the good fight and keeping up on that. It's it's hard.
Rachel:Well, and like never forget, too, that you can always call and ask. Like we tell our students that our relationship with them doesn't end the second that they walk across the stage and get their hand shook and then take lots of pictures and lots of cheering, right? We're still here and we're still available to run things fast. You know, I've reviewed herd health plans for former students and had calls of like, well, I just want to discuss a case with you. Use those peer-to-peer connections. Um, use your friends. Now we're in the social media area era. We already talked a little bit about the social media pages, but there are some really good ones out there for veterinarians, exclusively for veterinarians, too, where people bounce ideas off each other and review kind of cases. And yes, some of them are complicated, some of them are more simple, you know. But but it's a it's a place to go and at least use that as a way to start your brain thinking about what other differentials there might be, because you might come up with something where you go, Oh, I had never thought of that, you know, but someone else brought it up, so. Now you're going to do a little bit more research on it too. So the peer-to-peer networks on the veterinarian side are pretty big. Publications, if you aren't in a situation where you have access to a literature search database, do you have a friend that works at a university setting or a former professor that you can reach out to and do some literature searching, you know, or things like that for you too? So you can kind of get into some of those more peer-reviewed and evidence-based things if they're available too.
unknown:Yeah.
Michelle:ASRP is also a great resource, and there's there's plenty of members here who have a ton of small ruminant and camelid experience, and even some servid folks in our group. So please do. This is my plug for joining the organization. Get active, make connections, come to the annual conference, make friends, because this is a great way to learn as well. So, Christian, do you have anything to add on on students you know getting ready to go out into practice and work on CAMLEDs or building a VCPR or you know how to how you guys manage such a successful operation over there? Any thoughts really?
Christian:The biggest thing to me, and we've said it multiple times throughout, is if you don't know, you don't know. I mean, we've had students that have gone, been on our farm on rotations and stuff, and then actually have had them come to the farm as a vet in practice, and obviously they're very insecure in doing it. They're very happy to not happy, but they're very willing to tell me that. They're like, here's what I think, here's what I think we should do, here's why I think. But if you don't mind, I really want to call my old professor at Iowa State or whatever, I respect that a heck of a lot more than just saying we're gonna do this because that's what I think we should, you know. And I've had that happen several times, and both times I've had that vet professor on a speed dial and admit it just because we were you know calling Rachel. I mean, I can call her if I need to. I respect that a lot more from a vet starting out or any vet. If they don't know, they're willing to learn and admit that they don't know. But they're gonna get an answer and get back, and we're gonna resolve whatever the issue is.
Michelle:Absolutely. Yeah, you guys get plenty of interns and residents out there, and the first few months of residency, I think there's a lot of learning going on, especially. So it's good to know they've got Rachel on speed dial, and so do you. Check each other.
Rachel:And I've got my people on speed dial too, right?
Michelle:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're all talking to people. No one's no one's pulling stuff out of thin air. Um well, Christian and Rachel, thank you guys so much for taking the time to first of all catch up. It's really good to see both of you. It's been a little bit, and also share some about CNM Acres and your VCPR with Dr. Frederick over there at Iowa State. And I think our listeners are really gonna enjoy this episode. I'm a little bit biased because I really enjoy chatting with you guys. So um, but I I think they'll learn a lot. Um so do you guys have any closing thoughts for folks before we sign off?
Rachel:Just want to say thank you for the invitation to participate. I will also kind of set you up with a nice little plug there for AASRP. I will second that for sure. There is a ton of practical information that everyone is willing to provide there. It's it's a small but close-knit organization, and we are never not looking for new members. Also, really nice that we can host the conference in conjunction with the bovine practitioner conference because so many people overlap with multiple species, right? So, for me personally, doing mostly ruminant camelid work, I love the fact that I can go from a small ruminant session straight over to a bovine session and back and forth rather than having to carve out time for two separate conferences in the year. So huge plug there. And I just my last comment, I guess, is especially for those young practitioners that are just starting out, is cherish the people that have stuck with you as you have come up and learned. I cannot say thank you enough to Christian and Michelle for their trust in us as we bring students out and go through the work that we have done for them. And especially even after me going, yeah, I'm mostly cattle and pigs, but I'd really like to learn, you know, cherish those people that stick with you through that learning process because it does take a significant amount of trust and faith in order in order to do that. And there will be days that you don't see eye to eye with people. And so it's important to remember that the the good relationships that are out there when you're having a tough day and you're having an you know an issue with a client. Keep those folks in mind, and and that's one of my favorite things about food animal medicine in general, is that I get to know my clients on a much deeper level than I do with what did with my companion animal clients in mixed animal practice. I know your kids' names, I know where they go to school. You ask me about my family, I ask you about yours. It's one of the things that makes practice enjoyable.
Christian:Absolutely. What do you think, Christian? I thank you for inviting me to be a party of this and exactly what she said. I mean, it's definitely a relationship, and you hopefully to be a long term relationship. I keep tending to lose professors after a number of years that they move on and somebody new comes in. And so hopefully Rachel will be around for a while. Awesome.
Michelle:Well, it's been lovely chatting with both of you guys. Thank you again for taking the time out of your busy days, and uh, we'll see this again soon.
